Hi guys, newbie needing advice on flattening stomach

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l0vebone
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Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:10 am

Radical wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:47 pm
Right....but if he is at like 30% bf the only thing getting him to abs in a month is liposuction
fair enough I suppose it would take longer if youre extremely obese, but my main take away was that it doesnt have to be a prolonged process, you can cut aggressively for faster results, without losing muscle:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25028999/

"In a study they conducted, they split their subjects–20 to 35 year-old national and international level track and field jumpers and sprinters with low levels of body fat (at or under 10%)–into two groups: a daily calorie deficit of 300 calories (about 12% below their total daily energy expenditure) and a daily calorie deficit of 750, with both groups following a high-protein diet.

After 4 weeks, the results were surprising: the athletes utilizing a 300-calorie deficit lost very little fat and muscle while the group utilizing a 750-calorie deficit lost, on average, about 4 pounds of fat and very little muscle."
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Sisyphus
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Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:12 am

l0vebone wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:21 pm

Did you miss the part where I said he has 15 minutes to eat his one meal a day? It would be impossible for anyone to get anywhere near maintenance doing that. The reason I said he can drink OJ/milk/or have a strawberry shake or something, is because he's going to get into an extreme deficit.
Which is exactly what I said, intermittent fasting can help you achieve a caloric deficit, but it is not a neccesary condition.
l0vebone wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:21 pm

As for the rest, slow cuts are just bro science. Gaining muscle and losing fat are two different things completely. When youre gaining muscle you can only gain so much at a time, so you want to have a very small surplus. When youre losing fat, you can go as hard as your mental wants to take you, doing extreme deficits.
Discounting the mental factor is nonsense. We definitely have limited amounts of will power/mental resources to achieve our goals (although I do believe this is highly variable, too). You say you have no problem doing hard things in a faster/more intense way. Good. I never say "don't do that", I'm saying, it's unnecesary. It's WAY better do a "slow cut" (500kcal is not a slow cut though) than to do nothing.

l0vebone wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:21 pm

"But wait, you will lose muscle!" No, you will lose an equal amount of muscle going fast, or going slow. The mechanisms of losing fat are different than gaining muscle. As long as youre working out you will retain the same amount of muscles. There is no reason to stretch a cut to 3 months when you can have the same results in 1.
I'm not gonna argue about the science part, it's better if someone more experienced in the fitness area can comment on this (although I do believe there's a limited amount of fat you can burn/week, if you go too far I do believe you can lose muscle and strength, your workouts are not gonna be the same as if you were on a smaller deficit and your metabolism will adapt, so it will become harder to keep losing fat, but I'm not argue for that), but I'm gonna point out that I never even mentioned gaining or losing muscle in my comment and I don't think intermittent fasting will cause muscle loss.
l0vebone wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:21 pm
Pretty much. If I'm fat, I would much rather be anorexic and start with that as base then do a prolonged cut with a prolonged bulk. You would get results much quicker. 1 month cut + 4 months clean bulk then and repeat this cycle every 5-6 months.

Cutting -> youre able to do it as fast as you can handle,
Bulking -> is limited by your bodies genetics.
I don't agree with Lostcause, being in a caloric deficit or doing intermittent fasting doesn't mean you are anorexic, that's just a pop culture prejudice(although I can see how an anorexic person and a bodybuilder can have similar motivations, or being too extreme with bodybuilding can lead you to develop food disorders or body dismorphia). But don't say anorexia is a better starting base than doing a slow cut. How can having a mental disease be worse than achieving your goals slowly?
l0vebone wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:21 pm
How much muscle your retain on a cut will be the same if you are doing extreme deficit or a prolonged 3 month+ cut.
This has been my experience watching tons of professional fighters do extreme cuts, theyve all retained their muscle and strength.

There was another jacked + ripped guy on here who echoed the same sentiment.


Long cuts are just torture and come from a position of ignorance. Why spend 3 months doing something you can do in 1 month, just so its a little bit easier? The only time I would recommend someone a long cut is if they don't have the mental game to tough it out for 1 month and would go back to binge eating as soon as the cut is over. Personally, I like instant results and have no problem forcing myself to do things that I don't like.
>my experience
>watching tons of professional fighters

comparing a professional fighter to a lay person is nonsense, you don't know if they are under PEDs or not (they are). Also, how do you know they didn't lose muscle? When someone is leaner, they may appear bigger because the form of the muscles isn't hidden beneath a layer of fat, but it is an optical illusion. How do you know they didn't lose strength? Do you know their PRs before and after a cut? Where is the evidence of all the stuff you are saying?
Last edited by Sisyphus on Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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l0vebone
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Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:22 am

I've been in various martial arts for 10+ years now, I've seen fighters from boxing, to Muay Thai, to MMA, get ready for fights. Some of them are on PED's, others aren't. Theyre pretty open with me because I'm the one that's training them when they're getting ready for their fights, which is why I know whose juicing and whose not (not only that, but their performance as well. It's easy to tell when someone youve been training years with hops on a cycle because theyre completely different in every aspect of their game)

Ive seen them go from 15 or so bf% to 9-10 within 4-6 weeks time, consistently every time they fight.

With that being said, with my own experiences cutting, and watching tons of fighters cut, aggressive cuts do work, and they are better.... because... they get you results faster. I posted a study right above your post. I only felt the need to point out that you wont lose muscle because a lot of people think that if you cut slower youre going to be maintaining more muscle, when thats not true. Even the little muscle you do lose when cutting aggressively its still better because youre cutting less and can hop back on a bulk months ahead of time.

Anyways I'm done with this, I don't really feel the need to explain myself. If you have a strong mental game, cut more aggressively for faster results and clean bulk afterwards. If you have a weak mental game, enjoy your prolonged cut which will probably suck ass because you're doing it for way longer anyways and still feeling hungry, you're better off doing it fast and getting it over with.

This is just my experience, you can take my advice or not it doesnt really matter. Peace.
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Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:32 am

The 15 minutes one meal a day plan sounds like torture, regardless of "mental game" and no I dont generally binge eat, just eat crap too often.

I am taking the longer game plan, as also this is more sensible to establish permanent changes in diet habits..

... A 3 to 6 month stint of sensible eating, will become second nature as the diet habits will feel normal and ingrained, rather than having a month feeling like I'm a prisoner of war
(lockdowns/restrictions + one meal a day, literally will feel like that)

I've stopped snacks, and have adjusted meal volume and content, plenty of online guides out there with sensible eating plans ...

I am using the GF/LTR goal as my motivation, and also, for example what I dont spend on the sandwich/snack truck that visits my workplace, on snacks is going into a savings pot, for a style revamp, so I have the reward of a new wardrobe for the slimmer me at the end of this (actually there is no end, as the diet habits should be ingrained!)
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Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:43 am

You can lose a lot of muscle while cutting. That should be obvious since on a purely water fast muscle tissue is broken down to supply protein until death after > 21 days (Gandhi's longest fast).

It makes sense trained athletes how have gone through many bulk/cut cycles adapt to lose little muscle mass on their cuts. Less obvious its the best solution for a first cut.

Study on muscle lost during a 21 y/o bodybuilder's first cut
This strategy resulted in a body mass loss of 11.7 kg’s, corresponding to a 6.7 kg reduction in fat mass and a 5.0 kg reduction in fat-free mass.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article ... 015-0083-x

However, especially if you're at higher bodyfat percentage, you can lose a lot of fat and not a ton of muscle (according to an article I read that cited the classic Minnesota study...which is a book and I haven't found the relevant section yet. Will do so when I have.

Overall, the best diet / cutting strategy depends on individual adherence to the program in addition to the program being the best theoretically possible.

OP, let us know how your journey goes. Iterate to perfection.
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Phoenix Arise
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Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:21 pm

Read this article: https://moreplatesmoredates.com/get-shr ... beginners/

Derek is
a) Hyper-jacked
b) Also comes from the goodlookingloser ecosystem
c) Is an emerging big-name fitness youtuber/influencer
d) Has a reputation as one of the most well-educated and science-based dudes in the whole fitness community.

I'd rather listen to him than the advice of some stranger in an internet forum telling you to eat as much as you can in 15' and then nothing else.
Derek literally recommends the exact opposite approach, namely taking it slow and steady.

For various reasons:
a) No, muscle loss IS NOT THE SAME whether you cut at a 1.000 kcal deficit or 3.000 kcal deficit. Like come on dude.
b) You cannot recommend this to a 47 y.o. fat fitness newb and expect it to work, even if it were a good idea for young folks with fitness experience (which it isn't). That's why being jacked =/= being a trainer. A trainer needs to make informed decisions based on his client's baseline and make informed recommendations based on that.
c) Metabolic slowdown is real and it will hit said 47 y.o. fat fitness newb like a ton of bricks if he tries this crap. Especially since he doesn't even know his hormonal baseline.

My recommendations to @Mat_N_Yorks are the following, take them or leave them.
1) Read the article and follow its advice.
2) Definitely get your hormones tested. Especially at your age it can't be too difficult to get a comprehensive male hormonal panel from your GP. Just complain to him about fatigue and crap and you ought to get it.
Hell, I wanted to know my hormonal baseline last year as a 22 y.o., complained to my GP of fatigue and got it without much questioning.
It was even covered by my insurance except for total T, free T and DHT (because I'm so young), which I had to pay 40 euros for.

A few markers to look out for are: total test, free test, estradiol, LH, FSH, SHBG, progesterone, DHT, thyroid hormones.

3) Intermittent fasting does work and I like it a lot for cutting but not as extreme as @l0vebone recommends.
Especially not as a beginner. You can start with a 16:8 IF protocol with 3 meals.
For example:
You eat between 14 and 22.
Lunch at 14. Only meat and vegetables or salad.
Snack (fruit salad and small sweet, like a bit of dark chocolate or an oatmeal) at 18.
Dinner at 22. Meat, vegetables and your savory carbs (potatoes and sweet potatoes are best for cutting: 20-25g of carbs per 100g compared to say rice at 70g. Plus potatoes are much more filling too.)

The above is a very simple and sustainable plan that will 100% produce results for you if you stick to it.
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Radical
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Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:38 pm

Deferring to dc7 is definitely a good idea with regards to body comp

Even Chris admitted he surpassed him in that area and Chris was also highly credentialed
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