WARNING. These common meds might give you permanent sex. dysfunction

[Juicy3lf]

I use biohacking both to massively enhance my sexual ability but also my vibe in relation to girls and it has helped me insanely in that regard.

And one other reason I haven't tried to make it into a business either, is I have no issues with massive amounts of dangerous / illegal drug use either.

Don't let those trashy girls destroy your dick out of spite.

[GoodLookingNerd]

I was about to start dutasteride when I came across this post, now I have some second thoughts.

I have been on finasteride for 3 years now, with no sides at all. It has been losing it's effect now and I am clearly balding. The logical step seems to be taking dutasteride, reducing DHT by 90% instead of 70%. I delved deep into the rabbit hole when I started and decided that the risks were overblown, and I am glad I started finasteride, and I was pretty sure the sides were all just guys looking for something to blame their shitty situations on.

I definitely believe your story, and it sounds like a nightmare much worse than baldness can ever be.
Do you think there might be a big differences in side effects between dutasteride and finasteride, if so should I consider dropping the treatment?

[Tragedy]

@GoodLookingNerd sorry bro, for whatever reason I didn't receive any notification.

I'm gonna reply as if you didn't start yet. Let me know if you did though.

First let me say that I don't want in any way to belittle baldness. I started to get bald in 2021, at the beginning in a sudden way and I was disheartened. I would have thought I was immune to the psychological effect of it, that I was somehow superior and stronger in my identity, especially after having gotten this syndrome, but it turned out I really suffered by that way more than I expected.

Nonetheless if baldness is a threat to a guy's identity, trust me on the fact that being castrated is in no way comparable, a totally different universe. I lost a big part of my soul and even if I would magically completely heal tomorrow morning, nothing could cancel what happened and such trauma. It changed me as a human being, both in a bad and in a good way.

Dutasteride is indeed more dangerous than Fin, both in a quantitative and in a qualitative sense, because it acts on both types of 5aR. The syndrome is an on/off situation and it is not clear what triggers it, though It is reasonable to believe that 20% less DHT could make it more likely.

If you want an advice I would first start with doing everything else.

I don't know what is your budget but there is:

-PRP
-Injections of peptides in the scalp (i did those, I used Dr Cyj hair filler)
-Dermaroller
-Putting a lot of topical products (zinc, caffeine, ... and even the "dangerous" substances but it is better to use them topical instead of pills). You need a vehicle to make the substances that are not designed for skin use, cross the skin and get inside, for example Glycol.
-Scalp stretching: I know it might sound woo-woo but it is really important to do since it works in preventing cicatrization of scalp and inflammation, therefore it reduces DHT. Check for Rob English method.
-I know somewhere they even offer injections of one's own fat into the scalp.
-Red light therapy.
-High vitamin D, K2, C, collagen, vit B, Mg, K.
-(I am sure I am missing something important)

For me, dr cyj injections + scalp stretching + dermaroll did the trick. At least for now, not sure how long it will hold.

I would also read propeciahelp forum and get familiar with people's stories. I can guarantee they are legit, I have both met some of them and many other are part of the studies my colleagues are doing. That could help in avoiding their mistakes and knowing how exactly they got their syndrome.

I don't know how savy are you about hormones but in case it is something you understand/want to understand more, I would suggest reading this https://osf.io/jxnbu/
The guy who wrote it published it after my indication. It explains a very possible cause of these syndromes, therefore could give some hint on how to avoid getting them. But it is a bit tough to read if you are not into the topic, so you can skip this point.

If nonetheless you decide to go with Dutasteride, I would first have a full hormonal panel, especially sensitive estradiol measured with LC/MS method (the other method is NOT ok).

After that I would switch in the most slow and steady way, as much as humanly possible. No sudden changes. I cant advice on the precise procedure but ideally the dutasteride should be calculated for having the same level of Fin effect at the beginning. It might be hard because in many countries Dut is in capsule form, not tablet, though it is not impossible.

I hope this helps for both hair and penis health!

[GoodLookingNerd]

@Tragedy Thank you so much. I actually havent started yet, but I have 2 yeara worth of dut capsules at home now. Was gonna postpone it a bit cause of possibls shedding. Ill look into scalp stretching and that link you attached. Ill see what the options are for hormonal testing here.
Also, what do you think of this guy? He is a big proponent of finasteride and dutasteride usage. https://m.youtube.com/@haircafekevin he is seems to be very knowledgeable but Im not sure if I can trust him fully. He cites a very convincing study where dutasteride side effects actually decreased over the time of usage. Also goes into detail on how the side effects could be nocebo effects

[Tragedy]

@GoodLookingNerd I didn't know this guy. I watched the first 10 min of his video "The dangers of finasteride" and I lost count of the factually wrong things he states.

I am not sure what's his background. I am not a big fan of having a title to back up one's claims but it is undeniable that it is difficult to learn certain things outside of a specific environment.

As an extreme example, I would have no problem to take advice on supplements from a guy who read 100 books on supplements but I would not get a surgery by a guy who read 100 books about surgeries.

What I am trying to say is that this guy may or may not know single facts but doesn't seem to know how science works, at least from what he says.

He states a bunch of factually incorrect things and he also claims that people talking about post finasteride syndrome are either fringe doctors marginalized from scientific community or narcissists.

The first 2 doctors that come to my mind, since I am from Italy and I was/am in contact with them, are Dr Cosimo Melcangi who teaches endocrinology in the department of pharmacological and biomolecular sciences of the University of Milan, and Dr Giancarlo Panzica, who recently passed away, and used to teach behavioral neuroendocrinology in Turin University.

Each of them has published more than 200 scientific studies in their field, with few thousand citations. I would have a very hard time to call them fringe doctors.

Another name, Dr Emmanuele A. Jannini, is professor of Endocrinology, Andrology and Medical Sexology in the university of Rome. 300 published studies and one of the biggest name in Sexology worldwide. Is he another fringe doctor?

The youtube dude also talks a lot about scientific consensus but science doesn't work that way. A scientific discovery takes decades until it becomes part of scientific consensus, meanwhile only the scientist in a specific small niche will know about it. It also takes time, will and funds to reproduce a study.

It is not the case that one discovers something and the next week everyone around the world will try to do the same. The funds are regulated by politics and by how common and known an illness is. Researchers will get into famous fields such as Alzheimer or equally common syndromes, otherwise will struggle to get funds and pay their bills.

He also seems to ignore how pharmaco-vigilance process works. For example I can do a 2 years long study and measure that none of 1000 people who are eating asbestos have side effects. But if I don't measure again those people 15 years later, I will not find out that most of them got cancer.

In the case of Fin we are talking about phase 4 of the clinical trials process i.e., measuring side effects after the drug is put on the market. Due to the difficulty of the process it can take many decades to find things. Also people don't go around saying out loud "help me, my dick doesn't work!". Sexual issues are super hard to study.

Another thing he confused in the video is the difference between sexual side effect DURING treatment (that will disappear with time or with stopping the drug) and POST-finasteride syndrome, which are two completely different things. One can get either of those.

To conclude, the existence of PFS is a fact, there are both the studied on mice, on rats and on humans, plus the diagnostic criteria. Granted, there is room for more studies, and If I am lucky and we collect enough funds, in the next years I'll set a study myself to prove that electrical signal in the brain is different in those patients. I am trying to organize it in these exact days but studies are incredibly slow and complicated. So much about scientific consensus.

The percentage of people getting PFS and the mechanism behind it is not a fact and is instead very debatable.

One thing that the dude is right about in the video is that DHT itself is not what one should focus on, but it is important to consider the ratio between testosterone and estradiol, that is why I advised you to do those blood exams.

[GoodLookingNerd]

Thanks, Ill take his words with a grain of salt then. Hopefully I dont get any unreverseable symptoms. Gonna do the hormone test and see if I can find a way to make topical dut from capsules

[Thebastard]

Holy mother of God @Tragedy I am so sorry to hear about your experience!!!! That truly is eye-watering mate

I didn't use tretinoin cream for a while, mostly out of laziness but now I will need to think carefully about picking up that tube again

[Tragedy]

Holy mother of God @Tragedy I am so sorry to hear about your experience!!!! That truly is eye-watering mate

I didn't use tretinoin cream for a while, mostly out of laziness but now I will need to think carefully about picking up that tube again

Thank you man!

I don't know your exact problem and if you were using it on the face, but other than sexual issues, retinoids can have other risks such as permanent eyes issues which are not that uncommon with face cream use, even if you don't put it right on the eyes themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddict ... _dry_eyes/

You might want to consider that too before using. I would also try to address the problem through diet, supplements, optimizing hormones, red light therapy and non-retinoic creams.

I am having face skin issues myself after having worked in the past under constant high exposure of wheat particles that inflamed my skin. For now it is not a priority for me, but as soon as I am getting a job I will start a bunch of safe therapies and report back.

[Thebastard]

Holy mother of God @Tragedy I am so sorry to hear about your experience!!!! That truly is eye-watering mate

I didn't use tretinoin cream for a while, mostly out of laziness but now I will need to think carefully about picking up that tube again

Thank you man!

I don't know your exact problem and if you were using it on the face, but other than sexual issues, retinoids can have other risks such as permanent eyes issues which are not that uncommon with face cream use, even if you don't put it right on the eyes themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddict ... _dry_eyes/

You might want to consider that too before using. I would also try to address the problem through diet, supplements, optimizing hormones, red light therapy and non-retinoic creams.

I am having face skin issues myself after having worked in the past under constant high exposure of wheat particles that inflamed my skin. For now it is not a priority for me, but as soon as I am getting a job I will start a bunch of safe therapies and report back.

I didn't have any issues, it was more for optimising my skin and its meant to be good for getting rid of wrinkles if you use it long enough. GLL had great success with it.

Didn't know about the permanent eye issues! Scary shit

[GoodLookingNerd]

If nonetheless you decide to go with Dutasteride, I would first have a full hormonal panel, especially sensitive estradiol measured with LC/MS method (the other method is NOT ok).

So what would I specifically look out for? And do I also need to measure testosterone?

[Tragedy]

Me myself I would measure at least T, DHT and E2 sensitive.

For 2 reasons: to have a baseline to compare for the future and to check if T/E2 ratio is alright.

Lowering DHT increments T as a consequence (because T is not converted anymore).
High spike in T might crash E2.

I'll copy-paste you something I wrote in the past for research purposes. Hopefully it's not just buzzwords.

<<The excessive activation of the androgen receptor pathway, coupled with low estrogen levels, can lead to the inhibition of estrogen receptor expression [through transcriptional regulation, competition for co-regulators, and epigenetic modifications].

These biochemical processes ultimately disrupt the balance between androgen and estrogen signaling, affecting the overall estrogenic activity in the cell or tissue.>>

The point is that estrogens must be in check, you don't want to crush them.

[GoodLookingNerd]

Makes sense. How important is it that estradiol is measured with the LC/MS method? And is there another name for that method?

[Tragedy]

In men, post menopausal women and pre-puberal young girls, the estrogen level are very low to begin with. If one uses the classical immunoassay method, the test doesn't have enough estradiol to react to and detect C-reactive protein instead, giving a fake value because it will be measuring something else.

Therefore it is necessary to use Liquid Chromatography Mass Spectrometry method. It is indicated by LC/MS acronym or LC-MS.

Sometime is also called Sensitive Estradiol because it's the one sensitive enough for men. If you use the other method you are wasting your money and getting a random number that doesn't mean anything.

MorePlatesMoreDates has an article comparing his results with the 2 methods to see the difference, you can look it up if you are curious.

[Juicy3lf]

@Tragedy

What do you think of having 17-beta estradiol of 156 and SHBG of 68?

[Tragedy]

@Tragedy

What do you think of having 17-beta estradiol of 156 and SHBG of 68?

I would need the range because every lab is different. I'm assuming that the first is 15,6 therefore in range but maybe the second is above average?
I need more context to comment.