STICKY THREAD: BMan's Archetype Building Guide (7500+ Words on How to Develop Your Archetype (With Bman as the Example))

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Bman
Posts: 810 | Thanks: 1234
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 11:26 am
Name: Brandon
Goal: Get Laid
Age: 30
Motto: Pursue Purpose
Location: Austin, TX

Tue May 16, 2023 11:35 am

How to Develop Your Archetype

The previous time I wrote about developing my Archetype it spurred a trend on the forums of others trying to develop theirs. I thought it would be helpful for you all if I wrote a short guide as I continue to develop mine in real time. 7500 words and two days to write, I sure hope it's useful to you.

This post has a lot to do with theory. I try to balance it with what actions I’m taking to develop my archetype. I don’t want you wasting time by sitting in your room just theorizing about your archetype and never battle testing in the sexual market. You’ll learn at the end of this post the importance of theory then action, getting feedback from girls, then more theory, action, feedback. In fact I was halfway through writing this post on theory, went on a date and got laid, and came back to finish it after walking her back to her car.

So promise me you will take action on what you read here.

What is an Archetype?

Before we get started, let’s define two ephemeral concepts that will be necessary for understanding the rest of the guide. First is Archetype, which is the dynamic relationship between your personalities, behavior, and looks.

Archetype = Inner world (personality, mindset, values) + Your actions in the outer world based on that inner world (speech, behaviors) + Your presentation of that inner world to the outer world (looks).

Second is “vibe”. This is the more ephemeral of the two, so forgive the rough definition of something that is hard to put into words. But roughly, it’s the relationship between your archetype and how the world reacts to that.

Vibe = Archetype x Reaction of the outer world (ie girls) to that archetype.

The reason these concepts are important is because if any one element of your archetype is “off”, meaning incongruent with the other elements, then your “vibe is off”, meaning the reaction you are receiving is incongruent with what the world is expecting.

So when someone tells you that you need to “fix your vibe”, they are signaling that your personality, behavior, or looks are incongruent. Your archetype is incongruent with what the world wants and is expecting.

For further understanding of this, I’ll point you to our wise sages:
  • @kyil_andy & @Ed_ did a podcast showing how Ed changed his archetype and had better success.
  • @AskTheDom and @Crisis_Overcomer did a podcast discussing archetypes and what happens when they are incongruent.
  • @MILFandCookies did a video explaining the importance of being congruent in your photos, showcasing what you would look like and be doing if you were caught on your best day.
Now let’s dive into a real example, my archetype development, so you can see how this works. As you read, you may think “Brandon, does this one element really matter that much?” By itself, not that much. However, remember that these parts add up to a whole. If you have several elements that are only slightly incongruent, the individual element does not matter, but when added together it makes a larger incongruency. One or two incongruences makes you interesting. Dozens cause cognitive dissonance in her head.

Analyzing Archetype

To analyze your archetype you’re basically looking over the previous lays and breaking down what type of girls you attracted, what attracted them, and how you can develop that to attract the type of girls you want.

In order to do this I think you need at least 20 lays to have enough data to begin working with. I wouldn’t worry too much about it until then. If you’re just getting your first few lays, use the fuckboi lite presented in Andy's Tinder Guide as your archetype and go get laid.

After 20, you can make a prediction about your archetype, try it on for a while, and then keep iterating based on the results you get. If you want to see how this process unfolds over the long term I would assign @pancakemouse’s log for reading.

I’ve seen a few the elite profiles on these forums and I always felt slightly discouraged because they look like your typical chad. I’ve always felt like the anti-chad. So it was nice to have a look at what a maxxed out version of that might be for myself.

After I’ve been with 20 women, these were the looks quality of woman I currently got with my SMV threshold:

Girls.PNG

And from my observations, this seems to be the archetypes that I’ve interacted with and where they fall:

InkedAmap.jpg

First off, this is why I love having a log and data to look back on. I was actually humbled by how good looking these girls were. In the moment I was so worried about my own confidence to get girls. Looking back, not to shabby. Good reminder to put things in perspective.

Based on my natural strengths in looks and the persona/style I like, I storyboarded what the maxxed out version of Bman could look like: a blend of rocker/ bohemian/ smart look, heavily tatted, solid physique, beard and long hair. I also storyboarded a few photo concepts along the way.

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This gave some things I could start to improve over the next several years:
  • Tattoos: Over the next decade I can drop $20,000+ on tattoos. Now let’s be clear, this will improve my SMV, but really it’s for me. I really love art and design. I love it even more I get to carry it around with me on my body to look at whenever I want. They also serve as mementos of transformation points in my life. I’ve also always wanted to be a walking contradiction in professional circles where people judge my appearance and then shocked by my competence. So I’ll be happy to do this. I’m already somewhere between $1000-$2000 in. I’ll start with sleeves, move to chest, stomach, back, and then legs. Hands I’ll probably do. Neck I’m still iffy on. Most likely won’t ever touch the face.
  • Beard: As long as I take care of it with proper routine and nutrition, it will just keep filling itself out. I could be thicker, but it’s a hell of a lot better than my early 20’s.
  • Hair: I’m going to start learning to braid my natural hair and exploring hair extensions and clip in braids for more Viking styles. I enjoy the long hair and its fun having the girls comment how healthy and thick it is compared to theirs. I tell them to stop putting so much shit in it.
  • Physique: I’ve been building this over the last decade and recently really sculpting out areas. My chest is rounding out more, my delts and shoulders are larger, and my ab muscles are larger now that I can have a slightly higher BF and still have them visible. However when above 10%, fat stores on my love handles which takes away that V shape. So that will be a delicate balance.
  • Clothes: I have pretty much the basic versions of most of the items in the storyboards. So it will just be a matter of swapping out and finding better versions over time.
Incongruency Alert

I was recently alerted that my vibe was off and something was incongruent with my archetype after having been on dates with 4 different girls and not closing any of them. This was abnormal for me because my close rate before the first archetype improvement to my profile, was somewhere around 50-60%, with 20% of the no closes being me saying no to them.

Quick analyzation of the last 4 dates:
  • Girl 1: Hot professional. I would have closed this, as she was into me and wanted to go back home with me, but I fucked up the logistics before the date. However on the date she said I was “softer” than she expected, which she clarified as meaning more calm. This was good for her because she was nervous and needed more comfort.
  • Girl 2: Hot professional. When I went for the pull, she said something along the lines of really vibing but having a block of wanting to go back with me and needed to finish a project anyways. This girl was hot and confident, so she needed to me to spike her arousal levels by being more sexual as she was expecting I would, but instead got an even keeled experience.
  • Girl 3: Spiritual/ Instagram type girl. Pretty much same thing as the previous girl, stating we were vibing well, but wanted to get to know me better and have a second date.
  • Girl 4: Spiritual type girl. Super platonic.
The new pictures no doubt increase the quality of girl I was matching, in the type of archetypes that vibe well with mine. However, what I think happened was my profile sold a wild, dominant, sexual threat in looks. However my personality and behavior, while dominant, was more Zen and not the exciting spike of adventure and sexuality they were expecting.

Naturally I am mature, calm, composed, grounded, thoughtful, and calculated. In recent social interactions I’ve been mistaken for being in my late 30’s, being told it’s the way I carry myself.

So in my archetype I have two incongruences to work with:
  • Looks – showcasing more the mature, Zen dominant side of my personality so that when I go on dates the girls are not expecting a wild child that is pulling them right into the bathroom there to fuck them, but is still here for sex.
  • Behavior – being more sexual on the date, touching them, letting my eye contact that I’m great at holding express more of that “I want to fuck you” energy, and overall being more in touch with my desire in that moment.
Now let’s see how I update my archetype based on the feedback from the market and what I want going forward.

Overall Archetype

When I first started developing my archetype, I had mapped out some buckets that I fall into with “Rockstar”, “Bohemian/Spirtual”, and “Smart/Professional”. I took some pictures & updated some threads mostly in the Rockstar and Bohemian buckets, but had not got around to doing anything in the Professional bucket. I ran forth with what I had and would get to those later.

As a result you got this free spirited, wild looking, rockstar, rebel into BDSM, who’s super direct about sex in text. What are you going to expect when you get on the date?

Instead you get a mix of that with this guy who is also really thoughtful, conscientious, building a startup in education, doesn’t drink, so on and so forth…

It’s causing cognitive dissonance in the girl’s heads and they don’t know whether to put me in the fuck him now bucket or long term provider bucket. They are in limbo.

Now while I partially am that rebel rockstar type, I’m more like the rockstar… “professor who doesn’t play by the rules because he knows their bullshit but thoughtful enough he’s going to take action in changing them”. Good example is Jordan Peterson. Still masculine, dominant, dangerous, but in a more mature way. That Daddy Dom energy.

I need to bring in more of Smart/Professional with a modifier of Creative/Professor and Daddy Dom.

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In relationship to that, this is also the type of girls I want to attract more of in order:
  • Good girl/Hot professional combo: When they have that “good girl” archetype, I vibe really well with them because they usually need more comfort to lower their arousal levels from being nervous, rather than spiking. But when they have that “Hot professional” combo they are lady in the streets, slutty, kinky, nympho in the sheets. These are hands down my favorite. My ex wife was this. My favorite lays were these. I have never had ED with these girls, ever.
  • Alt girls: I do pretty well with these girls as we vibe over being different than society, but I may not always be as wild or extreme about it as them. Visually they are so hot to me and I like the overt displays of sexuality as opposed to the lady in the streets.
  • Spiritual girls: They are fun, we vibe well about self-development, meditation, travel, tantra, those sorts of things. But they can also drive me up a wall sometimes with their free spirited nature, going with the flow, or talks about astrology and the like. I need to be careful with these ones though because I occasionally get ones like The Feminist or Psychedelic Girl which can be toxic.
  • Instagram Blonde: Basically those damn skinny, big titted, blonde girls sitting over there in my No Girl column. I rarely ever match with one and it’s a tragedy. I love blondes, but I also know I’m probably not going to vibe well with one of those archetypes. So I’m probably better off scooping up a combo one with one of the above categories. On the upside, I get a lot of red heads which I also enjoy. But genetically they are an anomaly, so I really think there is some underlying biology match of our genes or something. But I digress.
Also worth noting, the age range I most vibe with has been 24-35. Younger has just been logistically too flakey for me. Mentally, I match more with women that are older than I, which makes the dates and post sex chats more interesting.

Psychology

Now let’s breakdown the archetype into its parts so we can better understand the role they are playing with the others. We’ll first start with my psychology. While over long periods of time, you can influence shifts in your psychology, it takes a lot of effort in rewiring, and largely it is set in stone.

Traits

We’ll use the OCEAN or Big 5 traits as it’s pretty reliable and easy to see how it applies to game. Plus you can take a survey of yours through Jordan Peterson’s Understand Myself for pretty cheap.
  • Openness: Moderately High – this is what makes me open to new ideas, wanting to experiment, and with girls, helps give the rockstar rebel vibes
  • Conscientiousness: High – this, however, makes me very aware and deep thinking of what that rebellion will do, how it affects other people, responsible, hardworking, and with girls, gives empathy and comfort
  • Extraversion: Moderately Low – this bites me in the ass all the time as I have to cognitively put effort into speaking to others, leading a group, being in big social situations.
  • Agreeableness: Moderately Low – this helps with challenging girls, taking direction, and again, being rebellious
  • Neuroticism: Moderately Low – this help me have that steady, grounded, calm demeanor that can be comforting, but bites me in the ass if I need to spike emotion in girls
So we can see here that I need to have my looks match and show my high level of conscientiousness as it’s a dominant part of my personality.

Being that members of my family also exhibit dark triad traits, it’s worth me noting them here as well.
  • Narcissism: Moderately Low – I handle criticism well, have a lot of empathy, and don’t feel entitled to anything. However I do like being admired and respected but mostly when it has merit.
  • Psychopathy: Low - While I may be a rebel to the status quo of society, I have far too much empathy.
  • Machiavellianism: Moderate – This is the one I keep the closest tabs on. You’ll see shortly that one of my highest values is honesty, and for good reason. I am hyper aware of the weight of my words and actions in their ability to influence other’s emotions and actions for my gain or theirs. I am always monitoring my intentions, trying to aim them at the good. I’m aware of the degrees of honesty and how much they impact outcomes. If this post is not evidence, I’m very good at high level strategy, and this requires knowing the psychology of the players in the game. I believe this is necessary to be a good leader. No doubt it helps me a lot with girls. But I always error on the side of more honesty than not, with good intentions, as to never become a tyrant.
Mindset

I’ve dedicated a 365 project to working on this for myself. I recommend having a look at least at the first post to see specifically how I’m developing that and the way it affects my interactions with girls. You’ll notice some minor childhood trauma in there, and in my lay reports. You must address your trauma, otherwise it will bite you in the ass over and over again.

Values

I feel values are best observed in the way you act. So I will cover this more as I discuss my behaviors below as values affect the behavior decisions I make. But here’s my values in order of importance:
  • Purpose – this means I’m never giving up my mission or ambition for a woman. She will always ride shotgun to this. Part of the decision to get my divorce in fact.
  • Honesty & Integrity – by no surprise this is why I run Andy’s screening/direct game
  • Health – this shows up in not drinking, not sacrificing too much sleep, which effects date choices
  • Mastery – this is a huge driver for me wanting to learn and continue developing in game
  • Autonomy – I cherish my freedom and individuality. Probably should have never got married. But this makes casual, non-monogamous relationships work well for me.
  • Love & Relationships – Ah here they are. They are important to me. Other people are important to me. But not before those other values.
  • Spirituality – Obviously this helps me connect with spiritual type girls on some level.
  • Security – This is largely in relation to money, having routines, and some sort of anchor while I declare anarchy and revolution to other areas of my life. It sometimes rubs against things I’ll do with girls. Also it makes me contemplate still having an anchor partner, like Andy does, or lean towards having MTLRs.
Looks & Fashion

Now let’s discuss the second part of your archetype: your looks. I covered this a lot in part 1, so take a look at that.

In developing my archetype further, I have some updates to do with my looks in order to better match my personality. Mainly this means bringing in a more mature, professional look in some of my photos and fashion. Here’s a list of those:

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A couple explanations on my choices.

I’m planning on getting a 3 piece charcoal tweed suit. A 3 piece because I enjoy vests, and not wearing jackets, to roll up my sleeves and show my tattoos. But I can also wear the jacket with less formal clothes, like designers/ architects often do. And I can also wear the full getup. Pretty versatile. I’m choosing tweed as the texture as it is more often associated with an oxford professor than a business mogul. This aligns more with my passion for education and teaching, and my apathy towards money. Additionally it gives more Daddy Dom vibes rather than 50 Shades.

I’ll also be picking up a white/cream 2 piece and red vest. This will be worn out to events, especially BDSM ones. It stands out when everyone else is wearing black and with my long hair, beard, and tattoos, it has some subtle religious, good vs evil undertones to it. Last Shrine I had went dressed as Jesus and got a lot of admiration for it. Since @AskTheDom's previous recommendations to me in my log, red has also just become my default for these things.

Ill dive more into the photo choices when discussing hobbies in the next section.

I’ll still continue to be getting a lot of tattoos because I love them and it just further intensifies the rebellious, sexual vibe.
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"Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own." - Bruce Lee
User avatar
Bman
Posts: 810 | Thanks: 1234
Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 11:26 am
Name: Brandon
Goal: Get Laid
Age: 30
Motto: Pursue Purpose
Location: Austin, TX

Tue May 16, 2023 11:35 am

Behavior

Finally, let’s discuss the last part of your archetype, your behavior, or the actions you are taking in the world. There is a lot that can be covered in this category, but since I’m using myself as an example, I’m going to cover the developmental changes and clarifications I’m making to my archetype.

Types of Game

Based on my personality, values, skills, and lifestyle, these are the types of game I like focusing on:
  • Online: I really enjoy photography so I don’t mind taking hundreds of photos to keep improving. I’m also decent at marketing and copywriting which helps in improving the profile funnels. Most importantly though, it fits in well with my main focus being my work.
  • Daygame: Truth is I really want the confidence and charisma that is on the other side of doing hundreds of approaches. I want to be able to approach any women, any time. My biggest idol on these forums of what I would like to achieve one day with this is @SpicyBoi. The tenacity, directness, and balls on the mother fucker is inspiring. My biggest problem is consistency and I’ve not dedicated the time to pursue this. However as I travel for van life, I will be prioritizing logistics of being in places that I have easy access to volume. I also believe I have potential for this as in the less than 100 total sets I’ve done I have gotten several numbers and been on a date from cold approach and almost always get positive interactions.
  • Social Circle: This is just thrilling. I also have no hesitation at aiming at the top girls in that arena and going after them. And my personality makes leading those circles very possible. I’m pretty rookie with it still, but enjoy improving. I’ll be creating a professional social circle and meetup in the coming months. Shout out to @natedawg who is killing it in this arena.
I avoid night game entirely. I value my health far too much and not really the “fun” guy. I’m pretty serious. Doesn’t jive well with the social environments of night game.

Speech

The act of speaking is how you communicate your inner world to the outer world. Some will say it does not matter what you say, but how you say it. I know why they preach that, which is to keep you from being too nervous on taking action because you don’t know what to say. But after you get a hold of your nerves, it would behoove you to pay attention to both what you say and how you say. This is an art form known to the Ancient Greeks as rhetoric.

Words have power. Clarity requires picking the right words. For example, let’s look at the intention and meaning of these words when I use them:
  • Cute – I’m usually using this when a girl looks good enough to have sex with, but not giving me extreme sexual vibes. Or she’s acting less mature and coy. Or I’m not feeling as confident from moving from a platonic to sexual situation, such as approaching a girl in the middle of the street.
  • Sexy – I’m using this when I want to shift their mindset from platonic to sexual, when I’m being confident, dominant, and direct, or they really get my blood flowing.
  • Gorgeous – I’m using this when the girl is usually higher SMV and has a particular “lady” vibe to her. It’s more powerful than cute, but shows I also respect her modesty (even though I’m going to turn you into a dirty girl later).
If you don’t think this matters that much, I challenge you to ask the next girl you sleep with what dirty names they like and don’t like being called, like whore, slut, bitch, ect. You’re going to hear a lot of responses that surprise you and learn that each of those single words carry different weight to them.

On the other side is how you say something. Your tonality, inflection, and body language must match the intention and clarity of your message. I’m not a speech coach, so I won’t go on about improving these as I don’t have specifics for you to do.

For me, this is probably my most congruent category and one I need the least development on. From a young age I noticed the importance of communication for being a leader. I trained for 5 years in architecture school to stand up in front of people, communicate complex, abstract ideas to them, and have them brutally rip them apart again and again. Architecture school is not for the faint of heart. I’ve also spent hundreds of hours podcasting, both interview and solo. I’ve been through two coach training programs. I spent 8 years in a long term relationship where we constantly addressed issues with each other.

So it’s now pretty easy for me to get on stage in front of hundreds or talk directly to girls about sex or deep, emotional topics. Even when I do my occasional approaches, after I get over the nerves of the first one and opening, I usually flow pretty well. I get complimented when I push my voice deeper, have comfortable, dominant body language, and speak with ease and openness. If I’m nervous, occasionally I will speak to fast, but I have learned to slow down and really savor silence.

Being that I am well read, intellectual, and learn a lot, my speech tends to be more mature. With those comfortable enough to do so, including my ex-wife, I have been told I can make them feel dumb sometimes. I’ve learned to better fit my speech to my audience. However, showcasing more of the archetype of the smart/professional/professor will help with expectations.

With girls, the last frontier with my speech is dirty talk and sexualizing my speech. I’m rapidly progressing here, but still room for improvement.

Dates

Andy & Radical recently did a great video on different date plans you can do. Check it out.

I’ve yet to do a straight to the crib lay. A straight to my place would be congruent with the sexual directness, but I have no reference if I’d enjoy it. I have attempted a few times. However there is not really anything exciting to do at my place. Nor do I drink. I have a pool at my complex and have thought that may be worth a try sometime. With the comfort girls this is too much for them and they usually still want a first date at least.

On the other end, my conversion rate from first date to second date if I did not pull on the first is practically 0. Of what I can recall, I have only ever converted 2 girls into lays from this. So I am far better off just closing on the first date. Which is most in line with the sexual directness.

On those first dates, I have found that if I’m on my game that day, 30 minutes is the sweet spot. I’ve pulled faster at around 15-20 minutes. If it’s gone an hour, there is probably something up and I’m going to have some resistance.

On the other hand, having a long, 4 hour adventure date with someone I really vibe with is a lot of fun. I don’t want to do this all the time, but at the end of that date I wanted to ravish and practically fuck that girl in the middle of the street. Showing sexual interest, being touchy, and escalating was of no problem for me. So maybe every once in a while, just for my own pleasure if nothing else.

First date activity/location

Right now my go to spot is an outdoor bar that serves whiskey, beer, coffee, and teas. It’s got a decent vibe to it and works just fine. Because of my value of health, I always just get water. Which is fine, but it is a minor incongruence because I invite them out for a drink, and then don’t drink. Occasionally I get questions why and answer it, no big deal. However, the place doesn’t really invite the girls to dress up too much as its more casual. The other options are a dive bar next to my place which I’ve tried and not my vibe at all, or a bigger bar that just has all alcohol. So the coffee bar is the best of the three.

What I think would more congruent for me though is a well-designed tea/coffee lounge with nice couches that’s just a little more upscale. Not like rooftop, boujee upscale, but some place that is just a little classier and would be congruent for me to wear the all black designer look. Usually places like that are downtown, so I’ll prioritize that when van traveling.

Girls are expecting me to also be dominant and commanding. I really like that @Holden tells them exactly what to wear on a date that he knows turns him on. I’ve just been too sheepish about doing so, but would like to change that. Specifically asking them to wear skirts, cocktail dresses, red/black lipstick, and dark eye shadow. Shit drives me wild, which would help me to be more sexual towards them on a date. Going somewhere just little classier than the coffee bar is more congruent with those requests also.

I’ve also tried walking dates next to the lake, twice. First time was a successful pull but she had herpes which is no go for me. Second was the most platonic date ever. Works alright but you get sweaty from walking in the Texas heat. If I do those in the future there is a nice little, secluded gazebo on the lake that we can walk to and then sit, and I can escalate from there.

What I think might be fun though is doing a photo walk with them. A buddy in college and I used to do this all the time where we would take our cameras and just go shoot cool street photography together. We did it once in Japan and it was a fucking blast. My favorite things to shoot are portraits and glamour/boudoir photos of girls. I think it would be a window into my hobbies during the date, is inherently dominant as I tell them what to do or touch them to put them in a pose, and I can show them pictures I have shot with other girls. I also have “photography (including spicy content)” as a hobby in my bios. Andy used to do geocaching with girls. This seems like a similar little adventure together. Worth a try I think.

Dates with girls I’m seeing on a regular basis

In the few times that I’ve done it, it’s really fun to take my girls out with me. Breaks up the same routine of having them just come to my place. They also get to partake in the adventures that come with the fantasy of getting with this specific archetype. The dates I’d enjoy are:
  • BDSM events – makes them really fun to have a date and girls really want to go to them. Plus for me, it’s great for social game.
  • Concerts – I only got to do this a few times when I was younger and always wanted to take girls with me. Many of the alt girls I match with are into metal/rock so it would be a blast.
  • Movies – pretty normie, but I really enjoy the movies. And I’ve actually had a fair share of sexual activity at the theater, so that’s always fun.
  • Symphony or similar – I’ve come to really enjoy string instruments as I’ve got older. Obviously falls in line with Daddy Dom and Lady in the streets dynamic.
Sex

Being I’m a sexual deviant, I enjoy exploring the range of opportunities with sex from BDSM to Tantra. I think it’s important to know the kind of sex you want because then you can signal and screen for it. The world of BDSM comes prebaked with it’s own archetypes, and while I tend to dislike all the labels because it pigeons people into holes and closes them off from exploring their sexuality, they are helpful if you know what turns you on.

I fall somewhere between a Daddy Dom and Master. As a Daddy I enjoy having her earn her pleasure for being a good girl, get some spankings and punishment when she's being naughty, but either way she must beg for me to give her more. As a Master I enjoy having her treat me like a king, worshiping, serving, lusting after, and being a slut for me because of how well I've taken care of her.

Two really important points with this, at least for me:
  • There is an emphasis on the girls earning the pleasure otherwise I can default to old tendencies of giving away pleasure and energy freely
  • The girl must want to do these things and be enthusiastic, practically begging to do them. I don’t enjoy the girls who want to be taken or forced into submission. I don’t force anyone to do anything. I’m not a tyrant, but a benevolent king.
Additionally, I enjoy anything that amplifies the taboo/naughtiness of it like fooling around in public or role playing. What I would like to work on, and would be congruent with the archetype, is getting more confident about doing sexual things on the date itself. For example, telling her to take her panties off and keeping them in my pocket for the duration of the date. Or having her wear a skirt so I can play with her somewhere secluded (see why I like skirts?). Of course I need to learn how to escalate up to that point better.

As mentioned, I also enjoy Tantra. Someone I follow is Luna Agneya who was a dancer and deep in the BDSM world, later learned Tantra, and now teaches what she calls “Tantric Kink”, basically mixing the two. I love doing this and have been telling girls about that. This hits hard with the spiritual girls. Outside of that, many girls don’t know what Tantra is so I have been working on the best copy to explain it and get them intrigued by it. For the hot professionals, I often have to lead with BDSM and bring in the Tantra later. Being a Dom focused on pleasure, rather than pain, it aligns well. Feel it sets me apart in the scene also. So I plan on playing it up more.

As for submissive archetypes I enjoy most:
  • Good girls: the type of girls with praise kinks, are a little shy and innocent, feminine, and after you open them up are total naughty sluts.
  • Service subs: the ones that get off on being of total service to you, not just sexually, but enjoy doing other things for you as well.
  • Slaves: girls who like to be owned by you and of complete use to you. These I have to be careful with though because I don’t enjoy extreme degradation and sometimes these girls do.
  • Switches: I actually enjoy the sexual confidence of these women. It’s also so cute to have them try to dominate me while I’m dominating them, and have them ultimately submit.
Worth noting, I also enjoy submissives either new to BDSM or early in their exploration. They are the most open minded and willing to experiment. Being and educator, I also enjoy mentoring them. Ones that have been in the scene a long time usually have preset definitions or expectations of what D/s is, and I don’t like following arbitrary standards set forth by someone else. That’s my job.

Submissive archetypes I want to try to avoid:
  • Masochists: I tried some sadist stuff with girls who are more masochist and I don’t enjoy it much at all. I don’t like treating someone emotionally or physically less than human. I have too much empathy.
  • Brats: I don’t mind a little brattiness if they are being coy and ultimately a good girl. But I have met brats that are just annoyingly challenging you at every little thing. It just drives me up a wall and I don’t want to be around them at all. These girls also often want to be taken or forced to do something, and I don’t enjoy forcing them.
  • Rope bunnies: I’m just starting to learn shibari, but I don’t forsee myself doing it just for the sake of doing rope. I want have sex, not just tie you up.
Career & Hobbies

This category represents the world that you are brining girls into. That if they hookup with you, they may get to take part in. It’s also the topics that you will most likely talk about on dates. If you show hobbies that you think are cool in your pictures, but you don’t actually do them, then you won’t talk about them with much passion. Passion in your words and voice will illicit emotion in the girl. Spiking emotion will get you in her pants. So you need to actually do those hobbies or have that career.

Other than my bio and my speaker photo, my profile does not really show much in congruence with the education startup. Yet on every date I talk about it and the girls always think it’s cool (or pretend at least). But it’s slightly incongruent with what they expect. Because a startup is inherently rebel, it’s worth showing and getting a photo of me reading, learning, or teaching would help with this.

Right now I have a picture playing guitar in my photo which increases the rockstar archetype. While yes I have barely started learning guitar, I couldn’t play you a damn song right now. Sometimes I get asked about it in messages, and I just tell I picked it up recently. Pretty incongruent.

As @MILFandCookies teaches, you should show ones that you’d be caught doing on your best day that are still exciting.

So here are my current hobbies in order of what I do most often:
  • Podcasts – both listening to and making every day. I actually ran a photo with me podcasting in an early version of my profile.
  • Weightlifting – could do a gym pic, but doesn’t necessarily fit the rest of the story of the archetype.
  • Reading/ Learning – think I could do a pretty dominant version of this like in the inspiration photos above and it would show the intellectual side of my personality
  • BDSM – highly congruent with the profile and would like to get one with one of my girls
  • Tantra (including meditation, yoga, & breathwork) – a picture of this would bank me more spiritual girls, but that’s not the main archetype I want to go for.
  • Photography – think this would also be a great way to show creativity, dominance, and sexuality if done with me directing a girl in a boudoir shot
  • Writing – by writing I mean typing, and photo of me at a computer is not sexy.
  • Volunteering – might bank me more good girls and soften the edge just a tad, but my dog photo already does that
  • Concerts – could be a good social photo but a lot of people have that
  • Volleyball – same as weightlifting, doesn’t really match the rest of the story.
Living Space

Your living space is a reflection of your internal world and lifestyle. A cluttered space is a cluttered mind.

I spent 8 years in architecture, 5 in school, 3 in the professional field. Trust me when I say that spaces also have vibes and it is important for that vibe to match yours. Girls are also very aware of this. Spending time with hot interior designers in college and banging one last year, they are all about the vibe of a space. The higher quality the girl, the more important it is to her. I’m not just talking about your top tier boujee girl either. Even your most free spirited, gypsie, spiritual girl wants a well curated space she can vibe in. I mentioned Luna Agneya earlier and she has a podcast episode about this which you can hear from her and the guest of how important it is for them to feel comfortable, safe, and in the mood. Being that I’m a designer, girls are going to expect this of me more than the average guy, just like girls are going to expect Radical to have his fashion more on point than your average guy.

Current Space

Currently I’m in a small 400 sq. ft studio apartment just right outside of downtown. To be more congruent with my archetype it would probably be better for me to be in downtown with studio loft with balcony or something, but I originally moved here with my ex-wife and had no idea I’d be doing all this and needed to prioritize location, logistics, ect. I don’t have a lot in my apartment, but what is in there is curated to give a mature vibe. My bookcase and desk are dark wood, which matches the hardwood floors, and black iron. I offset that with a white designer entertainment stand and bedside cabinet that has all my BDSM toys. I have a few selected pieces of art on the walls reflecting my personality, plants to accent areas, and mirror placed directly across from my bed that girls can look at themselves in when they are riding me. My bed has a comforter set with throw pillows and I have been told several times, especially by the younger girls, it’s the nicest bed they have been on at a guy’s place. I have color changing lights, use incense, and wired surround sound in the apt to fill in the other senses as well. The space could be done even better, but it gets the job done.

This setup is slightly incongruent with what you might expect a “rockstar” to have and with the spiritual girls they might expect more tapestries, alter items, and candles. I live here 24/7 so I’m not changing the space to fit them, instead I think showing the more smart/professional part of my archetype will lessen the incongruency.

Future Space

Right now I am in the midst of purchasing a van to do van life. Ultimately I think this will be a net negative on the archetype with the professional girls, but an increase on the girls looking for adventure and the spiritual girls. However I will be designing and building out the entire thing myself, choosing high quality materials and making it really well designed. Pancake gave me some pointers about pulling to a van as “going on an adventure” and showing it off. A lot of girls, including my ex wife, follow van life on Instagram religiously because they crave that adventure and juxtaposition to mundane, regular life. The van space though is a big reflection of my values, so it’s very congruent in that sense.

Developing the “eye”

In design we have a phrase when someone can quickly look at something and know exactly what needs to be changed in order to have a better design. Instantly.

We say they have an “eye” for design. They understand gestalt, an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts.

A good designer has the ability to look at all the parts, understand the relationship between those parts, know how the effect those parts have on people, combine them all together, and do it in service of a singular goal or vision aimed at “the beautiful”.

This “eye” is applicable to anything, you just change the goal…

A good trainer has the ability to look at each muscle, understand the relationship between the muscles, know how training those muscles will effect the body, combine them all together, and do it in service of your body composition goals.

A good president has the ability to look at each system and state in their country, understand the relationship between them, know how they effect the nation and global society as a whole, combine them all together, and do it in service of the goals of the nation.

Some of the top guys on this forum have developed the eye in some way and use that same skill to succeed everywhere…
  • MilfandCookies learned it with photography
  • Radical learned it with fashion
  • Manga learned it with sales
  • Crisis learned it with copywriting
  • AsktheDom learned it with BDSM
  • Andy learned it with content and coaching
Sit down with any one of them and show them something in their domain, and they can easily spot what needs changed. Instantly.
This same skill, I’ve tried to show you, can be applied to your dating, specifically your archetype.

You use your eye to look at all the parts of your archetype, understand the relationship between those parts, know how those parts effect girls, combine them all together, and do it in service of getting laid.

By the way, those top guys I listed all have the eye for this too because they learned to transfer the skill.

So how do you develop the eye?

To be frank, this is exactly what I’m trying to teach people to do in the education startup I’m building. To teach people to identify problems in their own life and solve them. Then take that same ability to identify problems, large global problems like poverty or healthcare, and solve them. But that’s not important to you. You need some action steps right now. It is KYIL after all.

So do this:
  • Put a shirt on and go talk to a girl. Reflect: What happened? How did you feel? How do you think they felt?
  • Put a different shirt on and go talk to a girl. Reflect: What happened? How did you feel? How do you think they felt?
  • Put a different shirt on that reflects your personality and go talk to a girl. Reflect: What happened? How did you feel? How do you think they felt?
  • Put a different shirt on that reflects your personality, makes you look better, and go talk to a girl saying more than hello. Reflect: What happened? How did you feel? How do you think they felt?
  • Repeat ad nasuem until dead.
You make predictions about the world based on what you know, go test that out in the real world, analyze your results, and make a new prediction based on your new understanding. Repeat.

Want faster results?

Find a coach or mentor. They have the eye, you don’t. They can see things, 100x faster, and you can’t. You don’t have enough time in development yet. You can borrow their eyes.

Or read books, take courses, and consume the wisdom left by those sages. Then implement.

Theory > Action > Theory > Action.

By doing so you will undergo the process of “embodying the sage”, learning to see through their eyes, backed by your own experience. Socrates taught this to Plato, Plato to Aristotle, Aristotle to Alexander the Great. Then Alexander almost conquered the world.

Eventually after you have mastered your shirt (and a hundred other small things in this process) you can continue with more complex situations such as the killers on this forum like:
  • @SpicyBoi: what happens when I travel dozens of countries, go directly sexual with this hotel maid, and pull her into this empty room for a quick bj?
  • @Holden: what happens when I wear my Chad suit out on a date with two girls I regularly have threesomes with in front of a third girl I want to add to my harem?
  • @kyil_andy: what happens when I have my long term girlfriend source and screen girls for us to regularly do kinky threesomes with?
You must learn to walk before you can run. You must run before you can sprint. You must sprint before you compete with Usain Bolt.

Personally, I’m just getting my running legs broken in. I get a few lucky sprints in, but no way am I beating Usain Bolt yet. But I know where I’m going, and that’s to the top. That’s not a dream, but a fucking promise.

If you develop your eye, undertake this process, you can get good at your dating.

If you get really good, you will transfer the skill and eventually you’ll be able to spot problems in any area of your life and quickly solve them.

If you get really, really good, you can do this for a business, organization, community, country, or society and solve problems that effect hundreds, thousands, or millions of people.

That, my friend, is how empires are built.
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Bman
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Tue May 16, 2023 11:37 am

@Radical, reposted to sticky and cleaned up adding in Part 1's content. Thanks for the recognition and really glad to hear you guys enjoyed it.
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Bman
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Tue May 16, 2023 5:51 pm

@kratjeuh, going to answer your questions here so guys see other examples of developing their archetype.
kratjeuh wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 1:45 pm
Bman wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 11:35 am
In order to do this I think you need at least 20 lays to have enough data to begin working with. I wouldn’t worry too much about it until then. If you’re just getting your first few lays, use the fuckboi lite presented in Andy's Tinder Guide as your archetype and go get laid.
This is the only part that I disagree with which is due to past experiences. I'll be humble and say that I've always been the guy thats is somewhat weird, luckily I've also always been accepted by society. I can only feel for my brothers here who actually got left out because
I know 50% how it feels and that already sucks.

Self-improvement has reduced this weirdness to an extent but going from 1-14 lays actually didn't make a single difference in this regard.

I hope we can see more talks about this because it will help out a lot of guys on the forum. If you read my log, you can tell it's a bit tipsy-turvy, and I would wager 90% of the reason is because I have a tough time finding my archetype as well as my spot in society. I'm certain more guys have this issue.

I also feel that most guys here who are so big on looks, are just having the same troubles about creating their look (or their spot so to say). We would see a big reduction of blackpill comments if we could find a way to identify and fix this issue.
When you are first starting out, you don't know what you want. You think you do, but after you get experience under your belt you open your mind to more possibilities and you realize some of the traits/looks in girls you wanted, you actually dont want.

Just a few examples:
  • I thought I wanted young 18-22 yo girls because they are more attractive. Went I learned is they are often (not always) less respectful of time, not as mature to talk with, and generally more standoffish to my archetype. I also learned I vibe well with older women, and if they take care of themselves, they can be more attractive to younger women.
  • I thought I would really enjoy spiritual type girls because of their focus on personal development. What I learned was this varies wildly with them, and some can be quite toxic, or stuck to much in the metaphysical. Some are great fun, others are not.
  • I thought brats might be fun, and even had "brat tamer" as a result from the BDSM test a long time ago. I learned they are a royal pain in my ass. Don't want that.
  • I surprisingly learned I really love dancers, of any sort, and now a green flag I look for.
  • I surprisingly learned I really like petite girls because of how much I can pick them up and throw them around. Combine that with some B to C cups and you're going to really get me going.
And a dozen other little examples I could list.

Analyzation is two sided - what you want and what you get in the market. If you only have 5 lays, well you just don't have much data for either side of the equation.

This is rough, but:
  • 1 Lay= You're enamored by the human existence of any female. You have little idea what you really want.
  • 5 Lays = You have a rough idea. You had a little variety. But your sample size is so small it's hard to confirm
  • 10 Lays = By this time you probably had a least one stellar experience and one really shitty one. You are circling in on things that work and things that don't. You start seeing nuance.
  • 20 Lays = You have the minimal amount of data to start seeing patterns, trends, and learning how you interact with girls. You have a vague northstar about your desires.
  • 50 Lays = You have tested a lot. You had some interesting lays and really starting to narrow in on the girls that get your blood flowing AND that you vibe with.
  • 100 Lays = Lots of data, easy to shift your archetype to what you want, and can easily screen exactly for that.
You can start developing your archetype from lay 1, just don't get married to the ideas you come up with because your likely not seeing the whole picture. Your archetype is not set in stone. It's dynamic and changes.

More data = greater understanding.
kratjeuh wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 1:45 pm
Bman wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 11:35 am
The reason these concepts are important is because if any one element of your archetype is “off”, meaning incongruent with the other elements, then your “vibe is off”, meaning the reaction you are receiving is incongruent with what the world is expecting.
Can heavily resonate with being called "off" or "weird". I notice that most guys here with similar intentions as me (= achieving abundance in order to attract an ideal partner) create this same weird vibe because at the early stages it's kinda weird to be fucking many girls in order to achieve 1 LTR.
Where do you see the solution in this case to "fix" the archetype thus creating a good vibe?
We all know that this is not a fairytale, there is no "one", meaning a girl that perfectly matches you.

Every relationship is going to require work, ongoing negotiations between your personalities. During those negotiations, one of you is going to have to change in order for the relationship to work. It's 100% guaranteed your partner will change in some way, because we are always undergoing a process of adapting to our environment. Especially because we as humans have goals, we take action in that environment, the environment changes, which causes you to need to readapt. The process is forever going on. But you only have control of you, so that means you will have to also change in order to fit the relationship.

In order of easiest to hardest to change:
  • Looks - this is why the first advice to guys is hit the gym and go shopping. You change looks quickly.
  • Behavior - this will be what is most changed in the long term relationship, adopting behaviors that allow you to take action in the world as a team, greater than any one individual can do on their own. It's also where the most conflict occurs, when you're doing behaviors that contradict each other. Behavior is going to take months to years to change.
  • Personality - this is going to cause LTR meltdowns. If your traits, mindsets, and values are to at war with each other, you are never going to work out. Personality can change through medical intervention (like certain psychedelics that can shift the trait openness for example) or 50 years of dedicated effort, but its pretty fucking hard.
When you're looking for a partner you are trying to front load the deck as much as possible to match personalities, especially values and mindsets because they will be the hardest to change later. However these are the hardest to tell about another person because they are inside that persons head. You can visually observe a person's behavior and looks, you cant see personality without long exposure. The more girls you have dates with, the better attuned you become, the greater odds you have, and if you choose correctly, the less work you'll do when in the relationship.

I got very lucky with my ex-wife with her being my 3rd lay ever. We had a beautiful 8 year relationship, yet I had missed some core, fundamental differences between us in values because I was young and did not know myself well then. Self development is not about reaching success, money, women, or even happiness. It's about the journey of finding deeper truths about you, truths about the world, and most importantly, the relationship between those two. Everything else is a byproduct of getting the relationship between those two in more alignment.

So now to your main question, how do you fix your archetype so that you may find your 1 LTR?

Based on the above, it should flow from your personality.

So, questions to you:
  • What is your personality traits? What personality traits fit well with those?
  • What is your mindset about you and life?
  • What are your values?
Personality traits should complement each other, not match one for one, but be strong where you're weak and visa versa for the other person. Your mindsets should be nearly the same. It's hard to live with a growth mindset if they don't have one. Most of your values should be the same, and can vary slightly in importance as long as both of you are clear about them.

Going back to the example of my ex wife, our mindsets were very similar, but are values on money, autonomy, relationships, and mastery varied quite a bit. These values effected our behaviors: I wanted to build a startup, live small, open the relationship, she wanted a status quo life. This also effected our looks: I hit the gym hard and dialed in my diet to always look good, she would wax and wane about health. At some point I became bitter and no longer wanted to negotiate my values. Marriage over.

After years of self development and studying my own personality and how that interacts with the world, I have a much better understanding of myself and can choose behaviors that screen for the things that will match that. For example, I very much value autonomy; however I also value security to a less extent. I can observe in myself that while I enjoy multiple girls, having an "anchor" partner or MLTR's would feel better for me.

So in my texts I have started saying "I'm looking for something ongoing and casual (open to more if we really click) with a woman who's not afraid to still be honest and connected. Someone who's in touch with her pleasure and wants to be adventurous, maybe exploring BDSM or Tantra".

Will this work? Don't know yet. I'm battle testing it in the sexual marketplace and getting results. I just had 2 weeks of flakes, but also just got laid with a girl I had a great time with.
kratjeuh wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 1:45 pm
How would you combine a mixture of outlining hobbies whilst keeping a set archetype or would you say your archetype can be situation dependant? I'll use myself as an example to clarify the question.

I'm white with a steady normal job, played tennis at a professional level and my current hobbies aside from tennis are fitness and dancing.
Tennis is associated with wealth and class
Fitness is associated with more muscle showing off and strength (also some vanity especially in the tennis industry)
Dancing is associated with freedom and wearing brighter colors

Fashion wise it's impossible to mix these 3 in 1 and personality wise it's even more impossible.
Any advice here on how to be less off? Or would you reckon it's just about getting really good at fitness and dancing now so that the weirdness that people have turns in respect of mastering 3 skills instead of 1?
What part of your personality do you want to show in order to attract the type of girls you want?

I know from your tattoo you value freedom highly. It's possible you may want to show dancing over tennis or fitness. You can still show off muscle by lifting your partner up in a dance pose. How much do you care about wealth and class? How much money do you make? If you start showing more wealth and class in your archetype, girls may expect fancier dates. If you don't have the money to back that up, you're going to be incongruent.

You'll notice that the major changes I'm doing, specifically bringing in more smart/professor/Daddy Dom in my looks is an extension of my personality. From there, I am choosing threads and hobbies from the large list I created that will better market and sell that personality like a photo of reading or teaching or BDSM.
Last edited by Bman on Tue May 16, 2023 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tue May 16, 2023 8:37 pm

Bman wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 5:51 pm
thought I wanted young 10-22 yo girls
lolololol plz correct this
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Tue May 16, 2023 8:40 pm

Not to take away from all the trouble you went through writing this^ post... But it's overthinking.

Anything below 50 lays just focus on getting more girls.

I wish more people explicitly told men this. This forum is full of guys who barely cracked 20 lays who are spending all their time thinking about the minutest details of their look or personality; or archetype, the new thing on the block.

Just focus on getting more girls. Things will sort themselves out, trust me.

If you want a wholesome wife to start a family with, guess what, if you don't want to fuck it up, and if you don't want to feel like you're settling, you're going to have to fuck a lot of girls anyway.

Your confidence, charisma, vibe, body language, speech patterns, attitude will all change as a byproduct of fucking more girls.

It's hard to be "weird" and also have 50 notches on your belt.

Furthermore, in my experience, only 1 out of 10 lays will be "amazing." Talked about this in my log and other advanced guys agree.

At 20 lays you'll have 2 "amazing" girls. It means nothing. It's hard to predict for me which girl will be amazing, let alone someone who's still brand new. Good luck screening for your wife.
Laycount: 100

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- Rotation of three girls (DONE)
- Regular threesomes (DONE)
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Tue May 16, 2023 8:45 pm

..
Last edited by bonzo34 on Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
dating

resolve job/income

Be an Army Officer

50 lays. 1/50

The first time you quit, it's hard. The second time, it gets easier. The third time, you don't even have to think about it.
be transparent as possible. Stop setting plays. Stop playing chess with life.
you make progress when you face a fear head on
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Tue May 16, 2023 9:35 pm

Bman wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 5:51 pm
Personality - this is going to cause LTR meltdowns. If your traits, mindsets, and values are to at war with each other, you are never going to work out. Personality can change through medical intervention (like certain psychedelics that can shift the trait openness for example) or 50 years of dedicated effort, but its pretty fucking hard
I definitely feel this nugget. I have had radical personality changes over the pandemic and especially the last year (aided through some inter-dimensional journeys that helped a lot) that I had been avoiding for the first ~25 years of my life. Those caused my own LTR meltdown and breakup... kinda hard to find yourself without an open environment or a stable living situation. I see it now as a painful gift. I feel like it all is finally coming together and my environment is much better to allow my personality to keep shifting and grow in the way it was meant to. I still don't know what the end result will look like I don't think I care -- the process will come on its own.

Thanks for your thoughtful insight
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Wed May 17, 2023 1:45 am

Holden wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 8:40 pm
Not to take away from all the trouble you went through writing this^ post... But it's overthinking.

Anything below 50 lays just focus on getting more girls.

I wish more people explicitly told men this. This forum is full of guys who barely cracked 20 lays who are spending all their time thinking about the minutest details of their look or personality; or archetype, the new thing on the block.

Just focus on getting more girls. Things will sort themselves out, trust me.

If you want a wholesome wife to start a family with, guess what, if you don't want to fuck it up, and if you don't want to feel like you're settling, you're going to have to fuck a lot of girls anyway.

Your confidence, charisma, vibe, body language, speech patterns, attitude will all change as a byproduct of fucking more girls.

It's hard to be "weird" and also have 50 notches on your belt.

Furthermore, in my experience, only 1 out of 10 lays will be "amazing." Talked about this in my log and other advanced guys agree.

At 20 lays you'll have 2 "amazing" girls. It means nothing. It's hard to predict for me which girl will be amazing, let alone someone who's still brand new. Good luck screening for your wife.
This mentality ignores what reality is like for those who are not attractive white males.

The sexual marketplace is hypergamistically stacked against anyone who is not genetically gifted (a majority of this forum — or else why most of us be here?)

If your race isn't in demand, if your face isn't in demand, and if your current natural look isn't in demand by contemporary media, good luck even getting to 20 lays without an archetype.

You know this from business: in a competitive market, if your product doesn't appeal to the majority population, the only way to win at all is to niche out.
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Wed May 17, 2023 10:14 am

Epic post from Bman! Will review in detail, while on the train later. Thanks and I appreciate you taking the time! I am starting to get into archetype building work myself, 2+ years into my journey, this is the next step for me. Your guide is very timely, and seems like the Self Improvement God's threw me a bone today through your brilliant self.

Excellent contributions to the community like this, always get my respect.

I'll chat to the mod team about starting a sticky thread capturing key contributions like this appears to be. :)
Holden wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 8:40 pm
Not to take away from all the trouble you went through writing this^ post... But it's overthinking.

Anything below 50 lays just focus on getting more girls.

I wish more people explicitly told men this. This forum is full of guys who barely cracked 20 lays who are spending all their time thinking about the minutest details of their look or personality; or archetype, the new thing on the block.

Just focus on getting more girls. Things will sort themselves out, trust me.

If you want a wholesome wife to start a family with, guess what, if you don't want to fuck it up, and if you don't want to feel like you're settling, you're going to have to fuck a lot of girls anyway.

Your confidence, charisma, vibe, body language, speech patterns, attitude will all change as a byproduct of fucking more girls.

It's hard to be "weird" and also have 50 notches on your belt.

Furthermore, in my experience, only 1 out of 10 lays will be "amazing." Talked about this in my log and other advanced guys agree.

At 20 lays you'll have 2 "amazing" girls. It means nothing. It's hard to predict for me which girl will be amazing, let alone someone who's still brand new. Good luck screening for your wife.
Yo broski: Firstly, thanks for your thoughts, and I respect your views as you damn well know, but this is one we will have to agree to disagree on.

We can have diff views and still be brosi, I am not interested in arguing with you or any one of my friends, but for ethical reasons, I MUST express my truth here. It is not for either of us to decide who is right, let us just share our opinion, kindly, respectfully, and let the people decide the best path for them :-)

I do not like to disagree with excellent posters like @Holden who are our communities OG’s, but when I see things that could hurt the underdogs, that really triggers me and I cannot allow the people I care about so much, to not have the best information and the best access to help they can get.

Not saying you're wrong, and I'm cool with your perspective, as you are with mine, but I just want to express this, so we can stop derailing Bman's epic thread and give this man the credit he deserves for the contribution he makes to our community and how he lifts up other men to see them successful. That is what KYIL is all about.

----

MAC THOUGHTS:

It's a borderline herculean task for someone to step outside their reality, and see the world from the eyes of another. I'm not saying this is a lack of empathy, I'm saying it is just a cognitive task that is exceptionally difficult for the human brain.

I don't know what it's like to be a quitter, to give in, to not be a fighter. I don't know what it's like to not be scrappy as fuck, roll my sleeves up, and go on the attack. When I was obese, housebound agoraphobic, and so sick I almost died twice, never once did I back down. I have a ferocious lion inside and when called upon, it will find the strength to just lift it's wounded paw again - but even so, it will sever the jugular vein. It is hard for me to understand the people who give in to their problems and choose to live limited, medicated, and allow the problems I had to take away their ability to lead a full and fulfilling life. You will always get compassion from me, but you will always be pushed to self improve, because I want you at the winners table. ASAP, and if you're on KYIL. I will accept nothing less than your success & happiness. End of.

Likewise, many are completely ignorant of their position in the SMP, and the position of those who are at far, far, far, FAR lower rungs.

Hypergamy & SMV: If a chick thinks she will gain something from being with you, it's relatively easy.

Hypergamy: Social Conditoning / Religion / Politics / Mass Media / Family / Friends.

All of these things are in the favour of men who have attrative archetypes already (White, Black, Asian men).

And all of these do not support males who have no attractive archetype.

That is what leads them to getting their fucking guts ripped out, while everyone else tells them “bro it’s just X Y Z”

I used to do a bunch of diff calls with guys, was in diff groups, and would do what they told me, and when it just wouldn't work.....I just had to step away and let those relationships dwindle over time. They didnt serve anyone.

Contrast with the dudes who have to play the game on the most difficult setting: look at the level these dudes have to go to. It is inhuman level grinding just to survive. Just to survive. The pain, the suffering, the feelings I have at the core of my being, they shatter my heart, they truly do. I have had damage done to me in this game. There are scars, and many of them may be permanent.

That is the exact moment when Greatness kicks in and you say “You can’t hurt me”. You persist anyway. You learn deep stocism and come to the realisation that it’s not you, it’s never been you, the SMP I just F**KED and a pretty horrifying place, for those who are operating outside of the acceptable parameters.

Want to know what used to be a living hell for me?

Wanna know what drove me to the fucking LIMITS of my sanity? And I mean, drove me fucking NUTS!

.....When your product does not have any real market, is not in demand, and is not one that any woman in the world would see as much of a prize or achievement, you just get ghosted endlessly, discarded endlessly, and to make anything happen is a truly bitter, uphill struggle.

I was told with sufficient self improvement, there will be a day when women like me and I will have a better go, will be able to convert on more dates, and so on.

Didn't happen.

Why? That is the question. Why?

You can talk about the time others have invested with perfect utility: I started at 18, went out 4 nights per week from 18-24, I also studied the classic texts (Mystery Method, etc). I also kept detailed logs. Wrote reports. Found wings. Got coaching. The job fucking lot.

People forget people like me exist when they make these broad strokes generalisations from their position within the SMP, which is one of deep advantage,

I have heard all sorts of takes: this, that, change this, focus on this. All valid data points. All things I actually work on.

So far, no changes to concrete outcomes. Zero. None. Rien. Duck's egg. Nada. Nothing. And I have truly, truly done the work. Nobody can deny that. Humans are a funny animal, their ego defense kicks in, they resist broadening their intellectual horizons and concepts for the world: "you're doing something wrong". And then guys who are complete ucalibrated freaks are still getting laid, with no game, no genuine self improvement, and so on. Why?

I can point at dozens of guy who blow me out of the water, despite not being better objectively better looking (remember Jacob from Bristol?), having any game, or even being functional human beings. Some of the most fucked up, epic losers who made physically sick, did far better with women than I could ever dream of.

The reason?

SMV & Hypergamy. In the SMP, when this is working for you, rather than agaisnt you, it forgives all sins, absolves all wrong, and allows deficiencies to be glossed over and swept under the rug. Jacob can be the very definition of a loser and bring chaos and disorder, pain and misery into everyone’s life, but still slay with women despite his retardation, just because his being a tall white guy is still enough to outshine his tragic life situation and the squalor and filth in which he lives.

Play the game with enough intensity, actually go ALL IN (do this 80hrs a week for more than a year), and you’ll see plenty. I have been tinkering away for 12 years and the past 2+ have been getting after it beyond anyone so it just is what it is.

Hypergamy & SMV is the most powerful factor in dating.

I spent my life savings and paid the cost in blood, sweat, and tears to learn this.

If you do not have this in your favour, it can honestly be a living hell. It can make you want to scream into the void, just blow your brains out, it is beyond my belief and is in no way what I thought I was getting into. I would have made a post exactly like that above maybe a year ago, but the more action I took (5000 approaches, 100+ dates, ALL IN, every day, 1.5 years, engaging with women 4-8hrs daily, 80hrs a week) I could not unsee what I saw and it operated in no way close to what I was taught.

Just look above average and talk to girls, is the reality of males who have hypergamy & SMV in their favour.

Just go get more girls is the reality for those who have the luxury of it being so.

For the small group who will never have proper appeal in the eyes of woman, they must find a way to win and stop the cycle of misery. The cycle, will not be broken, until you FORCE it. Consciously, deliberately, through strategy, action, and sheer relentless force of will, you make the adjustments necessary and take massive action to get a small taste of what you're looking for.

The good news?

This does exist.

-Archetypes
-Create a niche market
-Looksmaxx to insane lengths (I did for 2+ years and still am not passing the looks threshold LOOOOL)
-Game/Socal Skills (Like it or not, you will have to go on the 5+ year journey to become good at this. It’s that, or get your head kicked in and accept fatties, uggos, and undesirables)

A lesser man, who was not mentally strong, would have stopped the journey a long time ago.

All the self improvement I do, just affirms this. 2+ years - I have outworked everyone, I am a self improvement outlier. I have put in legendary levels of time and effort, and you all know it.

Latest batch of pics: guess how many more matches I get, even with the hard reset?

No significant difference. Same as before. If I like 500 profiles a day on hinge, 1-5 will match back. Same as it ever was.

Did this bother me?

NOPE.

Because I understand how the SMP works, understand Product:Market fit, and am smart enough to make sense of the 12 years of data I have gathered through action that exceeds everything done on this forum, by far.

No one has to like that, but it’s true.

Others were excited to see what levelling up my photos would do for me. My expectations were minimal. I got a slight uptick in match quality and better reception. Been on a few dates, whom told me they weren’t interested. I have revised my approach again and again and continue to work.

This just is what it is when your SMV is low & you don’t have hypergamy in your favour. I go on dates to just enjoy them and practice. I could give a fuck what they think of me and how they see me. I know how I see myself. I am still drawing in girls who are very much not DTF and often bores who are quizzing men for an LTR. I still get ghosted, still get told they're not feeling it, and so on, despite all the work I did. Only difference is, they’re a little prettier now, than the trolls I could get before.

Blunt Facts:

My product has a fucking TERRIBLE market segment in this world. These apps are filled with men whose SMV is 100x of mine (White/Black men, and then Asian).

I completely exhausted the logic of just take action, talk to girls, and you'll build a sex life - and this honestly made me want to jump off a building. Because the outcomes of that were fucking horrible. The outcomes are there in black and white. I am a man, I gut up and deal with it.

Getting more advice, seeking more counsel, from men who saw it differently, finally allowed me to understand my experience in dating and understand the extreme disadvantages I have to learn to overcome. 400,000+ others had read it, I have documented in painstaking detail for 2+ years.

Truly disadvantaged males need to find a way to win too.

In 2023, there are groups of males who are truly disadvantaged in the SMP. That ain't you, so you will never understand the experience. Wouldn't matter if you had 500 lays, you'd still only have the knowledge of the SMP that your position in it enables you to see.

The problem is, we as a community must band together and we must support everyone. I don't care if someone has mental health issues, substance abuse issues, a traumatic and troubled past, one arm, one leg, one eye - I don't care. If they want to improve their life, and are willing to do the work, we welcome them with both arms and get behind them. And they're a true grinder, then you already know I myself am going to go to the wall for that person to make sure they suceed.

So how do we support the guys who struggle the most?

We have to find ways to enable them to get them there.

I deal with it.

It hurts me. It causes me pain to the fucking depths of my soul. This game has done damage to me. Part of me has been fucking destroyed. There are moments of pain that hit all the way to the core of me being and I can do nothing about it. Nothing. I did not create this world, I do not know why God made it like this.

I choose not to give into victimhood and the cards I was dealt, and instead, find ways to win.

BUILDING AN ATTRACTIVE ARCHETYPE IS MISSION CRITICAL FOR MALES WHO HYPERGAMY DOES NOT FAVOUR OR THEY WILL OTHERWISE GET THEIR FUCKING HEAD KICKED IN

Acceptable-looking white & black males, this message is not for you so ignore it. Same for Asian males, they have a good in the SMP today too.

For the guys who genuinely are going to be skewered in this shit, looksmaxx hard AF, find an archetype, and give her a damn reason to pause for a second and actually think: OK, he's brown, so minus 2 / 3 points, but his confidence is elite, his vibe is sexy, and he is turning me TF on. I'll go with this.

The elite brown men I met on the journey, such as Joy, who is WORLD CLASS. And I mean, WORLD CLASS. Guess what? He never overcame the retention problem for the same reasons I outline above, though he doesn’t see it this way, it’s just blunt fact and he is still in the cycle despite his elite skillset.

He has no attractive archetype. In hypergamy, why would a women stay with him, when they could look to their left or right and be with someone who the entire world tells her is infinitely superior?

Archetype building is a very important consideration for those who are in a shit position in the SMP, because they can carve out a niche that will actually be receptive to them.

Again, I spent years and a fuck tonne of money dating fatties, uggos, and sleeping with women I felt no attraction for, to trust in the process and find ways to get better. it did not get better just following this basic, basic fucking advice that only applies to males who live in easy mode.

I know the pain I have suffered to the core of my soul, going out into the SMP without any archetype to support me. 5000 approaches, no lay. 100+ dates and only closed 9. If I think about this shit, it will just drive me more insane than it already has.

There is a lot more to come, too, and I deal with it.

Archetypes enable attraction to be built, where otherwise, there would be none, through empowering the disadvantaged and low SMV male to build a niche market for themselves.

Half truths always lead to a full lie.

There is STILL a pathway for success for those who are struggling for many years:

-Archetypes
-Geomaxxing
-Looksmaxxing
-Game

If you're having a shit go year after year and nothing gets better, you have to go down these pathways.

---------------------------

One of the best minds in Men's Self Improvement is below, and as you would expect from the legend himself, he hit the nail on the head:
pancakemouse wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 1:45 am
Holden wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 8:40 pm
Not to take away from all the trouble you went through writing this^ post... But it's overthinking.

Anything below 50 lays just focus on getting more girls.

I wish more people explicitly told men this. This forum is full of guys who barely cracked 20 lays who are spending all their time thinking about the minutest details of their look or personality; or archetype, the new thing on the block.

Just focus on getting more girls. Things will sort themselves out, trust me.

If you want a wholesome wife to start a family with, guess what, if you don't want to fuck it up, and if you don't want to feel like you're settling, you're going to have to fuck a lot of girls anyway.

Your confidence, charisma, vibe, body language, speech patterns, attitude will all change as a byproduct of fucking more girls.

It's hard to be "weird" and also have 50 notches on your belt.

Furthermore, in my experience, only 1 out of 10 lays will be "amazing." Talked about this in my log and other advanced guys agree.

At 20 lays you'll have 2 "amazing" girls. It means nothing. It's hard to predict for me which girl will be amazing, let alone someone who's still brand new. Good luck screening for your wife.
This mentality ignores what reality is like for those who are not attractive white males.

The sexual marketplace is hypergamistically stacked against anyone who is not genetically gifted (a majority of this forum — or else why most of us be here?)

If your race isn't in demand, if your face isn't in demand, and if your current natural look isn't in demand by contemporary media, good luck even getting to 20 lays without an archetype.

You know this from business: in a competitive market, if your product doesn't appeal to the majority population, the only way to win at all is to niche out.
^ Mic drop.

In our space, few even understand the basics of how the SMP works, SMV and so on.

Pancake gets it.

The Dom gets it.

Otherwise, these are things many are not informed about.

Is what it is.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above was a post on the utility of archetypes for a small subset of males who are unable to improve their dating life despite hard work, dedication and multiple years of commitment.

Once I accepted that there is still a way, it's just very different from the way I was taught, I was able to sleep better at night.

Let's not keep this thread focused, on track, and not debate each other unless we have something to genuinely add to the discussion that has not already been covered.

Thanks

-Ravi
-Your friend, Ravi

Consistent Performance Coach, Admin of WinnerWithin, and Seeker of Human Potential

My FB Group for Consistent Performance & Goal Achievement
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ironwilltribe
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hyrtsmyrts
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Sat May 27, 2023 2:45 pm

@Bman there's a thing I don't understand about this.

How am I exactly supposed to find my archetype by dating women? I don't understand what the types of the girls that I attract have to do with who I am.

If I'm attractive then all kinds of different girls will desire me. I might have missed something.

Like, I feel that analyzing the women I've fucked is orthogonal to analyzing my hobbies, passions, interests and such and those can be done separately.

EDIT:

I do get this point: if I want to have a bubble butt gym girl I gotta be in a good shape myself. If I want a girl with tattoos I have to get tattoos myself probably, too. If I want a metalhead gf it doesn't work out if I don't match her type.

What I didn't get is that I could tell by the first 20 lays what MY archetype is. Girls with ADHD who use too much alcohol on Friday evenings and go to bed with strangers?
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pancakemouse
Posts: 1768 | Thanks: 1052
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Age: 33

Sat May 27, 2023 5:26 pm

hyrtsmyrts wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:45 pm
What I didn't get is that I could tell by the first 20 lays what MY archetype is. Girls with ADHD who use too much alcohol on Friday evenings and go to bed with strangers?
That's not an archetype, those are personality traits.

Pull up photos of first 20 lays:
- what color is their hair
- how do they style their clothing
- do they have tattoos
- what are their careers
- what is their race
- what are their goals
- what is their class
- how do they talk

Compare with general population demographics in your area. I guarantee that certain archetypes will be overrepresented.

You've already given a clue in your log: you don't get the hot young party girls.
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Bman
Posts: 810 | Thanks: 1234
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Sat May 27, 2023 9:57 pm

hyrtsmyrts wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:45 pm
What I didn't get is that I could tell by the first 20 lays what MY archetype is.
Girls and the feedback you're getting from the market is a reflection of the product (you) that you are putting out there. By finding the commonalties in looks, personality, and behavior between the girls you're attracting, as Pancake pointed out, you can get a vague sense of the product you're presenting.

The rest of the post explains what to do if the product your putting out is incongruent with who you really are, arguing that you will have more success if they are in congruency.
Public Log: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1397
Year 1: viewtopic.php?p=49033#p49033
Year 2: viewtopic.php?p=66924#p66924

"Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own." - Bruce Lee
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hyrtsmyrts
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Sun May 28, 2023 9:35 am

pancakemouse wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 5:26 pm
hyrtsmyrts wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:45 pm
What I didn't get is that I could tell by the first 20 lays what MY archetype is. Girls with ADHD who use too much alcohol on Friday evenings and go to bed with strangers?
That's not an archetype, those are personality traits.

Pull up photos of first 20 lays:
- what color is their hair
- how do they style their clothing
- do they have tattoos
- what are their careers
- what is their race
- what are their goals
- what is their class
- how do they talk

Compare with general population demographics in your area. I guarantee that certain archetypes will be overrepresented.

You've already given a clue in your log: you don't get the hot young party girls.
I made a mistake in the choice of words. Mb. I think I actually got it now. If I would want to attract young party girls I would have to think what kind of guys they are after. Then I would have to think how to change my own archetype towards that. But in coungruent way just as @Bman said. Otherwise I come up as fake.

I actually made my homework and did an analysis. It was informative indeed.
Bman wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 9:57 pm
hyrtsmyrts wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 2:45 pm
What I didn't get is that I could tell by the first 20 lays what MY archetype is.
Girls and the feedback you're getting from the market is a reflection of the product (you) that you are putting out there.
Exactly. The product is just not ready yet - it's just a MVP. I don't yet embrace the man who I really am. I am just 30% (or whatever) of that man. So it's likely that I will attract different kinds of women after I improve myself. Both hotter women (which I don't attract right now) but also bigger volumes of the bottom 80% women (which I will filter out). It is an ongoing task to update my understanding of the product and its market fit as I get customer meetings and sales.
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Luniac
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Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:04 pm

Holden wrote:
Tue May 16, 2023 8:40 pm
Not to take away from all the trouble you went through writing this^ post... But it's overthinking.

Anything below 50 lays just focus on getting more girls.

I wish more people explicitly told men this. This forum is full of guys who barely cracked 20 lays who are spending all their time thinking about the minutest details of their look or personality; or archetype, the new thing on the block.

Just focus on getting more girls. Things will sort themselves out, trust me.

If you want a wholesome wife to start a family with, guess what, if you don't want to fuck it up, and if you don't want to feel like you're settling, you're going to have to fuck a lot of girls anyway.

Your confidence, charisma, vibe, body language, speech patterns, attitude will all change as a byproduct of fucking more girls.

It's hard to be "weird" and also have 50 notches on your belt.

Furthermore, in my experience, only 1 out of 10 lays will be "amazing." Talked about this in my log and other advanced guys agree.

At 20 lays you'll have 2 "amazing" girls. It means nothing. It's hard to predict for me which girl will be amazing, let alone someone who's still brand new. Good luck screening for your wife.
I’m with holden on this one, it’s not that OP I wrong it’s just that all these questions sort themselves out over time anyway, you gradually find who you are and what works for you.
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