Brandon Builds - Doing a Little Kink Night Game; Found the One "Celibate" Girl in the Club

[Bman]

Update

Girls

Have not seen Politics Girl in a while. She has thyroid issues and has been very low energy/ low libido through January. From our time dating I can tell emotional connection is slightly difficult for her, so communication has been slim. And her job works her to the bone. Hoping to see her again more in Feb/Mar before I leave. She's definitely been one of my favorites.

Property Girl also has been busy AF the last two weeks. Downside of dating these professional girls.

Nurse Girl is a real sweetheart. It's too bad I caught her right before I was leaving. I think she would have been a strong relationship in the harem. Going to try setting up my first threesome with her and Spiritual Girl since she reached out last month missing me.

Girl from above had to cancel our date because she got Covid. However she sent a nude as an apology. Told her we can reschedule when she's feeling better.

Had a funny thing happen to me with an old lay from last year, Buddhist Girl. We hooked up last year but did not lock it in and things just fizzled out. Well it turns out she added me on FetLife a couple months after we hooked up, but I had no idea it was her because she was not showing her face at the time. She had been liking my recent photos with the other girls. She posted a face picture a week ago and I knew I had seen that face somewhere. I ended up going through my airtable spreadsheet of past lays, and boom, their she was! Rejogged my memory by reading my old lay report. I reached out and playfully called her out for not saying anything, for which she didn't know if it would be awkward. Chatted with her a bit and just pitched doing a shoot and picking up where we left off, especially because she has been doing some shoots with other photographers in the area. We'll see if she's up for it, but we have already had sex before and bro science will say she'd rather hookup with a past lay than a new one.

Social Game

Last munch we had a busy one with a ton of fresh faces. I always enjoy these because you get a lot of new energy in the group. Not much for direct leads for me. I was only interested in a slim 19yo who when I introduced myself said she already knew of me and had seen me around a couple times. Unfortunately she's already in a monogamous relationship.

Went to the Shrine munch briefly on Wednesday. Leadership there was full of grief that I was leaving. Doesn't matter what type of environment it is, good help is hard to find and you will stand out if you put in the effort.

I just passed 200+ friends on FetLife a little bit ago. Seems there is a threshold in the 150-200 range where sliding into DM's cold is a lot easier, warranted that you actually open in calibrated way. Chatted with a couple girls about shoots, nothing panned out there. Chatted with a very attractive 23yo who had a bad experience with a guy previously on FL, so she was a bit stranger danger but said she was very attracted to me. Tried pitching a date, she wanted to get to know me better. So chatted a bit and then told her to not be shy and come say hello at a munch.

Some other actions taken that are not direct, but tangential for long term building:

• Put my photos on a bunch of photography and modeling networking sites. One of them had an AI that will let you know if there is commercial value in licensing your photos and tells you what the quality of your photos are in relation to other photographers. My recent ones were in the top 10%. I personally know I have plenty of room for honing the craft, but was cool to see. Had a model add me on Instagram from one of these sites, so its worth just having them out there.
• The model I was talking with before from the UK still wants to try and do a shoot when I'm in Denver. So we'll see what happens there.
• Started finding networking groups and meetups for education and philanthropy to attend. This is more for professional reasons, but will give me the opportunity to try transferring all these skills. I'll let you know @Holden if I come up with some smooth way to get any leads onto my instagram and not just shuffle everyone to my LinkedIn.
• Going to do a photowalk tomorrow with some photographers in Austin. Just a fun social thing to do. Will be super easy to get these people on my instagram, so hopefully there's some cute girls.
• My birthday happens to fall on a Monday this year, which is also when I host my munches. So I think I will have my final munch in Austin on birthday and open it up to the broader community as a one last time to say goodbye.

Apps

So downside of doing social game at my current level is volume is low. Leads that do come in are more likely to convert, but you get less of them. So if I'm having slow weeks, then I need to supplement. So I have been using Hinge this week.

I deleted Tinder and Feeld off my phone because I was catching myself just cycling through the apps which is not productive at all. Feeld has been garbage since the update, so I have not been using it. Tinder has always be just ok for me here. I'll be curious to know if it is more lucrative for me in other cities.

Really satisfied with the quality of matches from Hinge, but nothing has panned out yet because I hardcore screen for yes girls here.

Van Life

Actions take here:

• 90% of stuff in my apartment is sold, donated, or made its way into the van.
• Put in my notice to break my lease and will be paying the 1.6k fee for doing so.
• Already connected with the ex wife to meetup and also hang with some of my old college friend group.
• Got internet service in the van.
• Repaired some 02 sensors.
• Acquired the last couple items I needed for living in the van.

Aside from having to wait the 60 days on my lease break, I'm technically ready to go. Been sleeping in the van the last few weeks just to get use to it and because I get much more restful sleep in the van. Haha. I already love the fact that when I go anywhere, anything I would ever need is right there with me. It's like carrying around a giant backpack.

I can already feel the anxious itch you get in lifestyle transition periods where you just want to be doing the other thing already. All in due time.

That's all for now. Nothing overly sexy. Back in the middle, putting in work that will bear fruit in the future.

Oh! I went out with KYIL legends on Wednesday for Ed's birthday after the munch. Was a blast.

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[Bman]

Going to do a photowalk tomorrow with some photographers in Austin. Just a fun social thing to do. Will be super easy to get these people on my instagram, so hopefully there's some cute girls.

Well this was a bust.

The host of the meetup did not contact anyone beforehand. I showed up at 7am and no one was there initially. So I took a few photos and eventually another guy showed... who was not the host. Then another showed... who was not the host. We walked around a bit took a few shots. Another guy showed about 15 minutes later... who was not the host. We decided to walk down the street and a nerdy indian girl showed... who was not the host...

The host never came.

The rest of the photographers were all guys that worked in tech. Then the one nerdy indian girl who I was not into. I made small talk and got a few ok photos, nothing spectacular. Couple I can edit and throw up on Adobe Stock Images to possibly make money on.

One of the guys told me he came to this meetup a year ago and no one even came that day, and it was perfect weather.

I don't think they will all be like this, but that was real disappointing and such an amateur host.

If I were to run a photowalk meetup this is how I would run it:

• List is on meetup.com, eventbrite, linkedin, and facebook photography groups.
• Personally message anyone who RSVP's to introduce myself and tell them what they could expect.
• I know meetup.com and facebook allow you to have event group chats, so I would start those and invite everyone to drop their IGs. Everyone likes to self promote and it would give me an opportunity to lurk on any attractive attendees as well as first exposure to my IG.
• I would make a post in model/photographer facebook groups asking if any amateur models would like to join us on the photowalk to be models for street/ lifestyle photography. These groups are full of amateur models looking to build a portfolio. I'm sure I could get one or two each time. Obviously I'd chat with them and get them over on my IG.
• On the day of the meetup, I would have everyone meet at a coffee shop as the start our walk for 15-20mins. This allows everyone to network and get comfortable with each other. This is of benefit to the photographers because it will make it easier for them to ask others to be in photos during the walk because they already got friendly with one another. It would give me time to shake hands and meet everyone. I would also get time to chat with the models I invited. And get peoples IG.
• Then I would take everyone on a pre-planned route where I knew there would be 2-3 key stops that would be good for shots. At those locations I would photograph the models and help out any amateur photographers who may be just starting out. Obviously there are lots of opportunities for status demonstrations here: leading the group, directing models, mentoring others.
• I would end our walk near a restaurant, lounge, or other social venue and invite all the attendees for a drink/ bite to eat to further bring everyone together. During the meal I would help facilitate conversation if needed to keep it lively.
• Afterwards I would slide in the DM's of any of the photographers I might be interested in. If I'm interested in the models, and I did not already invite them out on a date, I could do so when sending them the photos I took of them on the walk.

I, however, will not be running one of these. But I wrote that out to show you how to engineer serendipity. That's the name of the game with these social groups.

What I will do next time for myself is post about an upcoming photowalk on the photographer & model facebook groups inviting out some photographers and models to this event that is already created. Then interacting with the models mostly.

[Bman]

Round 1 in Harem Management: Politics Girl

Have not seen Politics Girl in a while. She has thyroid issues and has been very low energy/ low libido through January. From our time dating I can tell emotional connection is slightly difficult for her, so communication has been slim. And her job works her to the bone. Hoping to see her again more in Feb/Mar before I leave. She's definitely been one of my favorites.

Because I was getting a lack of communication from her, as defined by her not responding to my text for a week and not texted for a couple weeks before that, I texted her today. We've been seeing each for 6 months, the sex is great, and I enjoy her company. This was irregular behavior, so I wanted to call it out today.

"Hey, hope you're well. I know you're busy but feeling a little in the dark over here. I'd like to see you again. However if you wanted to stop seeing each other, just let me know why. I'd understand. Just curious what's going on. "

I hardly feel insecure these days, but ghosting and silence can still push a button sometimes. I really was fine if she wanted to stop seeing each, I just wanted to know. And know why, to just get feedback to see if its something I would like to improve.

She called me while she was driving for her job. She apologized a bunch and immediately told me I had done nothing wrong. Told me she had gotten a promotion and raise at work so was now working more to justify for the promotion. She told me she ran out of her thyroid medication which messes with her hormones, energy, and libido. It also puts her into a somewhat depressive state and makes her self conscious about being seen by others, physically and emotionally. She also told me she is bad at communicating her emotions and she felt terrible about not texting me. She said I seen your text and I thought about you every night, but just didn't text you. Apparently I've not been the first person to give her this feedback.

I told her congrats on the new job and thank you for telling me these things. I now better understood all that was going on. I knew we were in a casual, open relationship, but just wanted to know and was not sure if something had come up. She also ended up telling me that she's only been dating me.
Told her I'd be leaving at the end of March and it would be great to see her again a few more times. She really wanted that too. So we talked about days of the week that might be best and setting some dates on the calendar.

She also told me she got some new lingerie sets she wanted to share or surprise me with. So I told her to wear one and send me a picture tonight and then wear the other when she sees me next, and if she didn't send a photo tonight or tomorrow she'd get punishment.

She thanked me a lot for taking the call and being understanding. She said most people would not be. She also told me to basically double text her if she does not respond because she's shit at responding, but also because she's like me reads them and answers later after having a well thought out response (which I appreciate).

Also told her it was my birthday next month and she was real excited. So hope to get something good out of that, because she always puts in great effort when she comes over.

---

In other news, got a professional networking event tonight.

Buddhist Girl is down for a shoot and to see if there is still a connection between us.

And the number and texting a blonde college student from Fet about doing a shoot.

[Bman]

Round 2: Property Girl

Property Girl also has been busy AF the last two weeks. Downside of dating these professional girls.

This has been an interesting week of testing me.

Property Girl was supposed to come over last Thursday because it was her day off, but then ended up getting called in to work to replace the new hire that got fired. I asked what other days she might be free. Did not get a response. No biggie.

Texted her on Saturday morning when she might be free for the weekend and she had a friend in town until Sunday afternoon. So I asked if she would like to come over Sunday evening after her friend left. Did not get a response. Assumed she was trying to figure it out and would let me know Sunday. Never got a response.

Now the week had started and it was out of my mind. But after calling out Politics Girl on Tuesday for behavior I didn't like, I knew I needed to do the same with Property Girl.

Sent the same exact message I did Politics Girl.

She immediately texted that she was sorry her communication has been shit. She explained how much she was working, then packing up boxes because she is moving places, and has been fostering a dog. She said I did nothing wrong. I told her thank you for communicating with me, it helps me to understand where she is coming from. I told her to let me know her schedule and when she will get time, and we can find a day for her to come over.

I'm pointing these examples out this week because a point of responsibility I take for the eventual divorce with my ex-wife was waiting too long to call out behavior I found unacceptable. Instead I let it go on and it became a habit, rather than nipping it in the bud when it started. I'm not saying this one thing would have made a long lasting marriage, but it is an area I could have performed much higher in. I learned that lesson.

This week I was explaining the concept of "training" girls to @foducossy42. Long ago when I first came across the red pill I found some of it to be a little toxic, but one concept that stuck with me that I don't see people talk about is the Captain/ First Mate dynamic. Basically, you are the captain of the ship, you hold the vision for your two's lives, and you lead her to reach the goals you both set together. She is the first mate, doing everything she can to support your leadership because she knows that you have both of your self interests in mind. So yes, there is a power imbalance, but the dynamic serves a purpose: to make the best life possible for the both of you. So when I'm "training" them, I'm teaching them how to behave that will most optimal for both our enjoyment and reaching the goals we both set. When it becomes toxic is if I am training her to only fulfill my needs or goals.

I think the work that @Zug is doing with dirty talk is the next level of this, and something I can personally improve.

A new lesson I'm learning now, and from the feedback from Spiritual Girl that I received when we broke up, is I am doing a poor job at setting boundaries and expectations for communication with my harem girls. I'd never had a harem before, let along long standing casual relationships, so I did not really know what my expectations were. Now I do. Now I need to be better at communicating those so everyone is a happy camper in the relationship.

But the testing continues...

Round 3: Nurse Girl

Yesterday I was supposed to have Nurse Girl over. She is stellar at communication. However when I texted her Tuesday to check-in I got nothing. No biggie, figured she was sleeping (she works nights). But still had nothing come Wednesday, so checked in again that she was good to come over in the afternoon. No response and never showed.

Now in her situation, I actually think something happened to her. She works nights for several days in row at the hospital. The day before she had come over the first time she was actually briefly hospitalized because something came up from being awake for too many days in a row and no sleep. I have her on FetLIfe and IG and there has been no activity on her feeds since Monday, which is abnormal for her. So I actually think something happened again since it would be the end of her 4 day work stretch. Luckily she has a husband (yes she was going to spend Valentines with me and not her husband) and family and works at the hospital, so if something did happen, she already has all the help she needs. I just get to play the waiting game to hear about it later when she finally does text me. Which I feel confident she will do.

Networking Event

Went to the professional networking event for nonprofits on Tuesday.

I have strong judgements that I will be able to leverage status in these circles. The event is full of people that either donate to the work, volunteer to do the work, or create the work; therefore the most valuable people there are the ones that create the work for otherwise the two other groups would not be able to participate. Additionally, what people value in this circle is not how much money you're making, but how much impact you are having. So now when I enter a conversation in these circles, and I get asked the blatantly obvious question, "What do you do?", I get to answer "I'm the founder of x and this is how much impact we have had so far..." Immediately DHV right at the beginning of a conversation with anyone. This is quite different from when I was networking in startup/tech circles because when you say you are a founder there it means nothing and everyone knows you're eating ramen unless you're getting VC funding. If you see, I'm doing the same thing that I wrote about in my original Social Circle guide, learning about the group and identifying what they find valuable.

Women, and many people there, unless the host or founder of an organization, are inherently submissive. I was talking with a woman after having given the elevator pitch of what I do, and her response was "Wow, I could never do that. I like to be on the sidelines and take orders from someone else." Half the crowd are volunteers and volunteers want strong leaders with clear visions and actions that will give them the reward of the warm fuzzies of doing good.

Been a while since I've done a professional networking event, but I'm pleasantly surprised by my progress in social skills and proud of my efforts, and there is plenty of room for improvement.

Breakdown:

• I worked half the room. Past me would have just found one or two people to talk to. Instead I moved between multiple groups and was able to interject myself into the conversation. What I can work on is working the entire room. I still got caught with a couple highly extroverted people who rapid fired questions at me without time to breathe or just have a moment of silence. As an introvert, this rapidly decreases my energy. I will learn how to recapture the frame of the conversation, move it where I want, and end it so I can continue working the room.
• On the note of being drained, I need to take control of the conversation quickly and move it towards more invigorating topics after doing the elevator pitch, otherwise everyone falls into the coin operated responses. This gets tiring.
• I had strong nonverbals. Kept solid eye contact with everyone I spoke to, often causing many others to look away or down. When entering a group with women, I would sit directly next to them, a little closer than what might be considered comfortable. Happened to see a video of myself that the host recorded for IG reels the next day and saw I had strong posture and animated hand movements when engaging with a couple of cute mid 20's girls (more on them in a moment).
• I was confident in myself. Before improving my inner game, I would have been self conscious about not looking like any of these people. These are buttoned up do gooders. Not tatted bikers. But I wore all black, brown wing-tipped boots, button up shirt with the top unbuttoned, one leather bracelet on one arm and one beaded on the other, and sleeves rolled up to see my tattoos. Yes I stood out, but I felt completely comfortable in myself before I even opened my mouth.
• A brunette came over and interjected herself into a conversation I was having with another guy. She thought she knew the guy from somewhere and they spent a few moments finding out that they may have both represented their orgs somewhere. Then she turned to me and said "you look really familiar, too" Honey, unless you frequent sex clubs, you have not seen me. She asked what I did, I gave the schpeel, she seemed intrigued. She talked with the other guy for a second and I engaged the blonde that had showed up who was with the brunette. Then we both got pulled into other conversations. I had already started talking with the other people when the brunette had turned around, walked back over to me and said it was really great to meet me ask she shook my hand. I held on to her hand a few moments longer than normal and asked her name again (because I forgot) and told her it was pleasure meeting her. Where I messed up is I did not catch up with her again before I was leaving to get a contact. Mostly because I was drained by the end.
• Another girl I was chatting with, the van got brought up and she asked if I was going to do a YouTube or IG for it and my travels. My dumbass got caught up the YouTube part and didn't take the easy layup for the IG. She was not as cute as the other girls, so no real loss, but a note for next time.

I enjoyed this. No personal leads but it was good for my first time back to professional networking events in a long while. And now I have some clear action items to improve on for the next. Which was supposed to be tonight, but the event turns out not to be what I though it was, so I'm not going. But already have some on the calendar for next week.

[Zug]

I need to take control of the conversation quickly and move it towards more invigorating topics after doing the elevator pitch, otherwise everyone falls into the coin operated responses. This gets tiring

This is a great insight that applies equally to dates or relationships in general. If no one is leading, it is probably going nowhere worth going.

I think the work that @Zug is doing with dirty talk is the next level of this, and something I can personally improve.

I think the reason dirty talk works so well is that its frame setting on a blank canvas. You can setup any type of relationship or desired arrangement in any light you want and get her to buyin in a way thats not possible elsewhere. If you want a girl that cooks and cleans for you, paint some picture of her cleaning for you in the nude and you checking her work, rewarding her with you dick everytime she does a good job.

If you want to paint a picture that pushes her into threesomes, first train her on getting rewarded for pleasing you, then tell her your fantasy of her with another woman and how much the thought of her doing it turns you on.

You can really say whatever you want if you have the confidence and she will always buy in if the steps are gradual and each step is pleasurable for her.

[Bman]

Alright. Taking a dose of my own medicine I prescribed to @ThePermanentFix.

You keep showing up. That's a good start. If you want to go faster, admit your weaknesses to yourself. Then humble yourself and ask for help. When you receive the help, go implement it. Let us know how implementation went. Repeat the process. By the end you'll be slaying girls and rolling in the bank.

Disclaimer: I know we’re not heavy on theory here, but theory helps me to create frameworks for my understanding. I need to know how and why something works. So as I have done with my other posts, please read this and then take action. Theory > Action > Theory > Action. Repeat ad nauseam until death.

What Women Need to Have Sex with You

Need 1: A Lower Perceived Value

Recently Aella wrote “Good at Sex: Seduction Via Narrative Reinforcement (pt 7)” about seduction, game, and SMV from a woman’s perspective.

In the article she states:

“A women’s core sexual drive is this: That you fucking her is clear evidence that she is sexually valuable, because you are more valuable than she is. If she were less valuable, she would have failed to get you to fuck her. You fucking her is evidence that she is more sexually valuable than other women, who have failed to get you to fuck them.”

This followed some of the lessons I had learned, but not fully internalized yet from Yohami’s notes about “Top Guy” behavior. Thanks to Pancake for posting the “Yohami’s Rules of Text Game”, triggering me to take a read again and get the same indicator.

Excerpt from From Yohami’s Rules of Text Game:

“So any success while in the bottom frame is either:

A) Her actual self perceived value is under yours, so to her you’re not bottom (thus all your work was unnecessary). This disorients you as you don’t know exactly what you did to get this girl – it’s not something you can repeat on command, so what happened?

OR

B) She’s taking you BECAUSE of the value gap AND because she benefits from all the work you’re putting in. This is the real danger as it gives you a taste of validation. This one teaches you to work more, and fixates you on specific things you did that somehow don’t tend to repeat and can’t get another girl by working the same exact bits, but you keep trying!

When I’m writing about seduction here, I’m always talking about case A. The girl who is seeing you as above her value and is offering compliance, is turned on, is not playing machiavellian games, doesn’t want your demise. The girl who is HAPPY to see you UP, wants your leadership, wants to play the feminine to your masculine.”

So in one sentence: For a woman to fuck you, she needs to perceive your value being higher than hers.

SMV.jpg

Before we go any further, let’s separate value from perceived value. Perceived value is a judgment from another person about where you are in the social hierarchy and your ability to contribute. Your thoughts of “I’m not good enough” are rooted in your inability to separate your value as a human being from the perceived value of your contribution to society. I knew this toxic thought all too well. For a primer on Self esteem and addressing this separation, see this lay report. Alright, back to Game.

Everything we do in Game is to influence the woman’s perception of our value. Some actions will improve their perception of us or will lower their perception of themselves thus making our perceived value higher.

SMV (1).jpg

So we have two options: improve our perceived value or decrease her self perceived value.

Examples of ways to increase our perceived value:

• Self-Improvement: Everything this forum is about. Whether improving looks, financial situation, status, lifestyle, and so on, we actually improve our value in the world so that we do not need to do anything to really show it. It’s just who we are.
• Abundant Behavior: This means doing behaviors that are congruent with those who have valuable lives. For example, having multiple women in their life, being able to lead others, or being able to afford travel.
• DHV: When we share a story or show a physical symbol that we do in fact live a high value lifestyle.

Examples of ways to decrease our perceived value:

• Scarcity/ Needy Behavior: If we act like she is the only woman in our world and we need her to fulfill our every need, we are clearly not abundant.
• Self-Deprecation: Thinking and saying phrases that show we see ourselves as lower value, not good enough, and worthless, even if done with humor.
• Empathy: Shifts perception that we are alike in many ways, value being one of those. This will close the gap between her perception of herself and you. More on this later.

Examples of ways to increase her self perceived value:

• Pedestalizing: If you worship her, she is undoubtedly above you.
• Validating with Attention: The multi-billion dollar attention economy should be enough evidence to show its value. If you are giving all your attention to her, you are giving her that value.
• Compliments: You will make her feel good about herself, particularly if compliment something about herself that she really values, such as beauty. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Just realize that it will close the gap in perceived value. If you have plenty of gap, compliment away if you wish. If the gap is small, you may wish to hold the compliments.

Examples of ways to decrease her self perceived value:

• Challenging: Putting you two in a demonstration of value against each other and showing that you have greater efficacy at that thing. For example, play wrestling shows you have greater strength.
• Degradation: Words or actions that actively and explicitly put her beneath you in some dimension.
• Teasing: Calling out a subtle difference or behavior that demonstrates that she is lower in value than you are in some dimension.

For those that follow anything I post here, you know I've talked a lot about empathy. If empathy closes the gap on perceived value, and will actively hurt me if I am perceived higher, why am I using it?

Short answer: I didn’t know what I was actually doing.

Long answer…

Need 2: Safety

In order for a woman to have sex with you, and subsequently to orgasm later, she needs to feel safe. Not so safe that she has no arousal, but safe enough that her arousal is not stressing her out.

What stresses her out the most and makes her feel unsafe is being unfamiliar with who you are, or perceiving you as a stranger, outsider, or foreigner.

As tribal creatures, we kill those who are not like us (or at least we used to).

However, if she becomes too familiar with you, there is no arousal, no alertness, no attention paid to you. She see’s you’re just like her. If you’re just like her, then you’re a friend, not a foe.

If we want to fuck them, then we must remain out of the kill zone and the friend zone.

SMV (2).jpg

Examples of ways to stay out of the friend zone:

• Polarization: Showing how you have different beliefs, values, and thoughts.
• Man to Woman: Showing the distinction between genders in any dimension.
• Breaking Rapport: Breaking connection with a flirt, a tease, or a command.

Examples of ways to stay out of the kill zone:

• Empathy: Showing that just because you come from a different environment, you are not so different from them. You understand them, despite your differences.
• Us vs Them: Creating a frame that you two are the ones that are alike, and everyone else is different. Making your own special bubble, just for you two.
• Building Rapport: Creates trust by identifying shared feelings, values and perspectives.

So why am I using empathy so much?

I’ve always been an outsider. Being poor had put me outside of higher social classes. Moving around all the time meant I was always the new kid. I have no brothers or sisters, so it was just me, all the time. I also have a slightly rebellious spirit and tend to ask why of almost every societal standard, molding my life to be inline with what I value, not what others tell me to value. So while I may be following something that some other people do, I always have a caveat, an exception, something I’m doing differently. Even the outsiders I was an outsider of. Most kids having my background would have been in trouble. I decided to focus on excelling in school. Of course then I look odd dressed like a hoodlum going into college. Never really got close with any extended family, so even my own kin I have felt outside of. Anyways, you get the picture.

Side note: No surprise I want solo travel in a van and moving every few months…

What that meant was if I wanted to have relationships with anyone, I was going to have to show them that just because I’m different, we’re still both humans, and I understand your experiences, culture, and groups you are a part of. The greatest tool I have found to do that was empathy. What I unconsciously learned was that empathy would make me familiar AND would help raise my perceived value if I were below the other person, which I often was. If someone is above you in perceived value, and that person empathizes with you and sees you are like them, then they unknowingly have admitted that either you are more valuable than previously thought, or they are less valuable than previously thought, closing the perceived value gap so that you are equals.

Ok, great. But equals are not sexy. Sameness is not sexy. Empathy will help satisfy Need 2: Safety, but will not help satisfy Need 1: a lower perceived value than you.

If you are already equals and you use empathy you will do nothing because the gap is already closed. If you use empathy and your perceived value is higher, you are losing points.

Now let’s overlay Need 1 as the Y axis with Need 2 as the X axis to see how these two needs correlate and where the sweet spot to be is.


Need 1 & Need 2 Together

SMV (3).jpg

In this graph, our lady is the pink box. We are the blue box. Yes I used stereotypical colors to define genders. Sue me.

If she perceives you as higher value, and you are just like her (or what she wants to be), she will respect you. If you approach her, she will be excited nervous.

If she perceives you as higher value, and you a stranger, she will fear you. If you approach her, she will be scared nervous.

If she perceives you as lower value, and you are just like her, she will give you sympathy, but she will not respect you. If you approach her, she will deflect with a kind rejection.

If she perceives you as lower value, and you are a stranger, she will be disgusted. If you approach her, she will harshly reject you.

In order to have sex with her we need to be perceived higher than her AND have just enough familiarity that she feels safe. This is our Fuck Zone.

If you have been working on your self improvement, being perceived by her as being of higher value, and you start using empathy, you will slide right into the LTR Zone.

If you keep using empathy, you will close the perceived value gap needed to have sex and become so similar to each other that you’re like brother and sister, or practically the same person. Landing you right in the Friend Zone.

There is a degree of empathy needed for long term relationships. You will have to compromise sometimes, which may lower your perceived value depending on the compromise. You’re also trying to build a life together and accomplish tasks for doing so like having a child for example. In order to do so, you’re going to have to see at least some things in a similar way. If you maintain polarity, you can still fuck while doing all this. If you become too similar, you will have a dead bedroom, which is just a contractually obligated friendzone.

Note on The Dark Tetrad: I believe these strategies work so well because they exaggerate the perceived value gap but those using them have just enough wherewithal to not be entirely different and trigger stranger danger.

Note on D/s: Dominance works both axes at the same time. It creates polarity and a man to woman frame. It also actively raises her perceived value of you by the nature of the activities you are doing. Her kneeling beneath you, for example. Submissive will work the axes in the reverse. If we look at marriage, you are submitting to her frame to some degree.

Now I know there are submissive men who enjoy happy sex lives. However, in my time in the scene, I see many FemDoms who hate men and they top because men are perceived as less. I’ve heard women say, “I don’t mind topping a man for kink play, but I would never have sex with him. I wouldn’t respect him.” For the guys who are submissive and actively having sex with their Dommes, I would guess that they are being perceived as higher value in some other dimension. For example, the guy who is a high achieving CEO who wants to get his balls busted in the bedroom.

Ok enough theory. What’s this mean for me?

[Bman]

Continuing from post 1...

Brief Review of My Game

Here is a breakdown of the past 35 lays and a few case studies of dates that I wish I had closed, but ended up losing.

Lay 1: Cam Girl (yes I lost my virginity to a cam girl. No, not on camera).
Reason for closing: Not sure… Was so long ago. I used craigslist casual encounters to get it but do not remember what I put in the ad, or if I responded to hers, or what we said in messages.
Retention: Yes. Despite being a virgin, she thought my sex skills were really good. She could not believe I was actually a virgin. Higher perceived value.

Lay 2: Obese Girl (I had very low self esteem. I’m not proud of it. That was the past).
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by default.
Retention: …no. I was disgusted with myself. Story for another time.

Lay 3: Ex Wife (Amazing what working on your self esteem does)
Reason for closing: I was an outsider to her. I thought she was weird at first. She thought I was kind of scary. Then she saw I was top of our class and DHV consistently in competence presenting my architecture projects. We became more familiar with each other over time in the social circle. I closed shortly after a party where I deliberately had another attractive girl in our class intimately sitting on my lap most of the night. She told me later she kept thinking “why is x over there on her lap”.
Retention: Yes. I took her virginity. I had a lot of perceived potential value.
Divorce: Taking full responsibility that I allowed the value gap to close and become too familiar. When we first got married, I had a full time job in architecture. She did not because she did not get a masters degree like I did. With my income, and doing some side hustles, I bought us a two story house. Then I realized I didn’t really want any of that. Quit my job and became a struggling freelancer while she improved her situation by getting a full time job in real estate. I finally caught up later but the value gap closed. At the same time all the differences that made me hot in the beginning, I slowly let fade. We became very efficient as a team getting things done and communicating with each other, but the lustful attraction was not there. There was no polarity. Contractually obligated friend zone.

Lay 4: First lay after divorce
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement and lifestyle.
Retention: No. I chased afterwards. Needy behavior. Chasing is death.

Lay 5: B Level Sorority Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement, Top guy behavior. Actually my fastest close I think. 15-20 minutes. I’d gotten the basics of fashion down. Sat on the same side (before I knew it was something I needed to be doing) and started using Andy’s BDSM script so the sexual frame was already built. I remember her being an excited nervous. I was a nervous confident. It worked out.
Retention: Yes. Sex was good and I empathized only after the lay during pillow talk. Only ended because she moved for grad school a few months later.

Lay 6: Jeweller Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement, confidence in sexuality.
Retention: No. Not sure why.

Lay 7: Architect Girl
Reason for closing: Balance of rapport building and breaking. We were touching each other quite quickly.
Retention: Did get ED but she was going to come over again. We messaged a couple times, set a date and time. Then never heard from her again.

Lay 8: Strawberry Girl
Reason for closing: Very confident behavior, lack of self deprecating behavior.
Retention: No. Can’t remember at all what happened in the days after.

Lay 9: Wednesday Girl
Reason for closing: One of my hottest lays achieved by acting as if I was higher than her (arrogance) and teasing her. I remember she was an interior designer, which we then obviously connected over design. But I remember breaking rapport some. She even called me an asshole or dick at one point. I remember her being quite nervous. She’s called Wednesday girl because she asked something around me having multiple partners (top guy behavior) mentioning if she would be Wednesday girl. Honestly, I don’t even know how I knew to act this way, but I did.
Retention: No. I chased afterwards. Needy behavior. Chasing is death.

Lay 10: Black Meek
Reason for closing: Took 2 dates. She wanted to “just feel me out” on the first date. Second she came straight to mine. I didn’t chase and didn’t fall into her frame. So I was probably perceived as higher value in some dimension and I just didn’t fuck that up.
Retention: No. That girl did not know what a calendar was and was shit at communication. I couldn’t be bothered.

Lay 11: Cheerleader Girl
Reason for closing: Right place, right time. She wanted an adventure in BDSM. Just didn’t fuck up and lower my perceived value.
Retention: No. Really think she was just looking to try it once. I was above the threshold for that.

Lay 12: Southern Girl
Reason for closing: Blatantly told me she assumed I was seeing other girls. Top guy.
Retention: No. Just mismatched schedules.

Lay 13: Cinderella Girl
Reason for closing: 2 dates. Empathy & Rapport building, but sexual Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. And honestly, not sure why. It seemed so solid. We tried once to set another date. Something came up. Then, I chased?

Lay #14: Travel Girl
Reason for closing: I don’t know. This girl actually seemed stronger in every perceived dimension and was definitely a high achieving, dominant, corporate girl, but not the kind that then melts as a submissive in the bedroom. I don’t recall actively making her self-perceived value go down. We had 2 dates and she even had a trip in between and had to reschedule, and still made it over for the 2nd date for the lay. Wish I had the audio for this because my lay report is lacking.
Retention: No. Think we tried twice to schedule. Didn’t pan out.

Lay #15: The Feminist
Reason for closing: Hahahaha… christ. I survived all her shit tests.
Retention: No. Thank goodness.

Lay #16: Christmas Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement, top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Mismatched schedules

Lay #17: Ad Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by sexual skills, first girl from FetLife. Needed comfort for the close.
Retention: Yes for many months. I rotated her out when I built a harem later.

Lay #18: Spiritual Girl
Reason for closing: Actually, in my head on this one I was actively self deprecating myself. I held my composure on the date though. But I think empathy closed the gap. Then I was aware enough to capture her high energy she was feeling, move it towards sex confidently, then pull. Despiste having some ED issues, she said she’d never have had anyone be so sexually skillful. I was also her first date off Feel’d and her first Dom.
Retention: Yes for a whole year. I rotated her out for other girls. But she was great.

Lay #19: Dancer Girl
Reason for closing: This girl was a babe. Had the date while reading Yohami’s notes. She perceived me as really hot, I did some teasing, man to woman frames, and just didn’t do anti-game behaviors.
Retention: No. Mismatched schedules and I chased a bit. Chasing is death.

Lay #20: Psychedelic Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value achieved through self development, preselection.
Retention: Yes for a few months until she tried to start drama for being jealous of other girls.

Lay #21: Pole Girl
Reason for closing: High achieving woman who self described herself as boujee, yet she was enthralled by ambition. I also took the lead, which compared to the other guys she dated, was a big step up. Also she thought I was very muscular. Higher perceived value.
Retention: No. Outdone by a pair of Chads who spoke French in her ear and she wanted to explore the relationship more with them.

Lay #22: Spanking Girl
Reason for closing: She said that how comfortable I was expressing my sexuality on the date was a big green flag. Confident, top guy behavior.
Retention: No. She lived quite far out.

Lay #23: Buddhist Girl
Reason for closing: Top guy behavior, some empathy & comfort to close
Retention: No. She had a medical condition occurring then. Tried a few weeks. Probably chasing. Chasing is Death. But she added me on FetLife and we have a rekindling date next week after several months.

Lay #24: Event Girl
Reason for closing: Aloof. She chased me. Status. Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Didn’t want to.

Lay #25: Lips Girl
Reason for closing: Munch lead. She chased me. Status. Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Didn’t want to.

Lay #26: Politics Girl
Reason for closing: Top guy behavior. Dominant and she is very submissive. Respects me a lot. I’m betting the perceived gap was large in her mind. A lot of comfort to close.
Retention: Yes. One of my faves.

Lay #27: Dress Girl
Reason: Dominant, top Guy behavior, except I actually felt like I had self-esteem here. Something clicked. Good mix of comfort and breaking rapport.
Retention: No. Chased to set next date. Chasing is death.

Lay #28: Trio Girl
Reason: I was hot to her. Dominant and led frame, even in token resistance at pull. Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Outdone by a 6’4 hung, muscular, fucking giga chad. Dude is handsome as fuck. She wanted to “see where that relationship would go”. Yeah, I get it. SMV.

Lay #29: Sorority Girl
Reason: Didn’t chase. Matched a whole year beforehand. Happened to rematch. Teased a lot on the date. I did pedestalize her some but later found out that she assumed I was having a ton of beautiful girls in my bed all the time. Higher perceived value.
Retention: No. Chased… fucking christ. Stop it. Chasing is death.

Lay #30: Rope Bunny
Reason: She had a very high self perceived value. Active preselection, witnessing my leadership, closing the gap some with empathy, confident and NOT doing bottom guy behavior
Retention:Yes, but was still a high maintenance princess if not in the bedroom. Fizzled out due to my lack of effort to keep it going.

Lay #31: NY Blonde
Reason: Pure status & preselection.
Retention: No. I didn’t want to.

Lay #32: Bratty Indian Girl
Reason: Already knew before the date I was being perceived as higher value because she told me. I comforted some, but held open the gap and just rode staying in the fuck zone till I decided to close.
Retention: No. I didn’t want to.

Lay #33: Property Girl
Reason: Complete comfort girl. I just needed to make her feel safe.
Retention: Yes. Current rotation.

Lay #34: Tantra Girl
Reason: Preselection. Status. Sexual skill value.
Retention: No. Didn’t want to.

Lay #35: Nurse Girl
Reason: Status. Top Guy behavior and comfortable around women. She respects the shit out of me. Some empathy and comfort, but probably not needed.
Retention: Yes. Current rotation.

Case studies that I wanted but I actively fucked up:

November Girl: On some metrics she had more perceived value, on others I did. We probably met somewhere in the middle. Matched before thanksgiving break and did not get to a date til after. Texting in between. I think this is one rare occasion where I did build perceived value by texting about myself over the break. Date came. It was great! Deep, deep rapport… but I didn’t break it much. It was warm and fuzzy. She said she could not go back with me on the first date, I didn’t care. We were in our own little world. 4 hours later and I’m ravishing her on the sidewalk before sending her home. She went through a breakup with her other partner. And she said there was just something telling her it was no, but she really respected me. At the time, she did have a higher perceived sexual experience in BDSM which is what I think was what tipped it to no. I think the margins and gap were so small here. I didn’t tank my perceived value, but all the rapport did not build it either. One of the few maybe girls I have dealt with.

OF Girl: This girl has a high self perceived value, inflated by her success with OF. However the frame in which we met put me higher initially. I was an outsider of the BDSM scene, but came to that munch with confidence, and observed top guy behavior: sitting on top of the table, taking up space, conversing with people and ignoring her and her friends. Her friends wanted to meet me (because they found me attractive) so her and her friends approached me. We got familiar. Over the next couple encounters I did not chase and she ended up DMing me on FetLife and I got the number. Tried setting a date, but we were both without vehicles at the time and she lives on the outskirts of town. Then I chased, trying to set more dates when the first didn’t work. I knew if I could get her on a date, one on one, I was fucking closing. So I pushed. Then I started closing the gap by getting to know her over text. The gap got to widen a couple more times from preselection of Spiritual Girl and Psychadelic Girl. But the same story played out of trying to set a date and chasing. Gap closed. Square in the friend zone.

Boudoir Girl: Christ this girl was hot (pedestalizing). We had a great date. I ran it well. We kissed at the end and both of us were turned on. I got a chub in the parking lot. Probably should have left the tension there, and intensified it by going in for the kiss and whispering in her ear instead. Only reason I did not get the pull that day was her schedule. She had to get home. Where I messed up was chasing… chasing is death. She was a busy professional woman and already had a partner so schedule was slim. She was also going on a trip. Tried before the trip. Tried after the trip. But always chasing to see what her schedule was.

After review here is where I am doing well:

• Solid reaping of sowing many years of self development
• Exhibiting top guy behavior, even before I really had all of it
• Minimal bottom guy behavior - I’ve done a lot of inner game work so that MY OWN self perceived value matches what I am experiencing. Bottom guys don’t do what I can do, so don’t act like one.
• Teasing
• Selective use of compliments
• Status, preselection
• Creating safety
• I’m doing decent at DHV, but still need to stay diligent about it as my lifestyle keeps shifting. Living in a van is low value. Having autonomy to adventure and travel wherever, whenever in a home I designed and built myself is high value.

After review here is where I am cutting my own throat in game:

• Chasing… Chasing is death: it’s a behavior that needs to be ripped out from the core mainframe, burned, put in a little box, and burned again. Why do I do it? 1) Sometimes the girl is hot (pedestalizing) and I really want her to stick around/ go on the date (needy). 2) I get in shitty scheduling situations where I keep having to re-engage her to try to set the date and I feel like I have to persist or it will not happen. Particularly AFTER the lay, if I try to set the day once, and she is busy, what do I say the second time so I am not sounding needy and chasing? This has killed too many retention opportunities.
• Closing the gap: Sometimes I’m getting the lay in spite of doing this. I probably don’t need to give her as much comfort as I sometimes do. Sometimes it’s necessary, but not as often as I think. Just like compliments, which I see as a good thing if they are genuine and not done to pedestalize, empathy needs to be selective, especially if I already have the higher perceived value.
• Breaking rapport more often: I’m a pretty friendly person. I’ve spent a lifetime of learning the skills to make sure I’m not an outsider while still maintaining autonomy. Its a balancing act. What I could do is actively break rapport more often. I think I have plenty of room to do so.
• Avoiding the category of tools associated with decreasing her self perceived value: Look, I don’t like making people feel worse about themselves. I’d rather empower them. Teases I don’t mind so much. They are witty and come with humor. It stings a little, but it’s all in good fun. I have done active degradation exactly one time. It was on OF Girl and she was being really bratty. I isolated a psychological pain point that I knew would make her really self conscious and I exploited it. I did not like doing it and immediately stopped. But she also stopped her behavior. It feels like a double edged sword where the wielder also loses part of their life force when using it. If there are other tools in this category I can use, and it won’t make her or myself feel like shit, I am open to hearing them.
• Interested in learning how I may be able to deliver a compliment that can also raise my perceived value when I deliver it. I’ve found complimenting the eyes, while also holding deep eye contact, works really well. It draws attention to my eyes and I usually get a compliment back.
• Active frame control and polarization of LTR’s: Must keep them out of the friend zone. My next steps for this are higher utilization of dirty talk and dominance. I do just fine at empathy and bringing us closer together.

Very open to hearing other's observations of my behavior that I am either doing well, and need to continue, or not doing well, and I need to improve.

In the words of Socrates, "Fucking christ, still a rookie."

[Zug]

For those that follow anything I post here, you know I've talked a lot about empathy. If empathy closes the gap on perceived value, and will actively hurt me if I am perceived higher, why am I using it?

I love theory, and I don't care if other's feel its useless, it hasn't been for me.

I'm not convinced on the thread you have with empathy == sameness == closing value gaps == lowering your value.

You might need to define empathy better for us to debate this. If empathy is understanding her blueprint, what she is feeling and thinking, and the ability to perceive and feel it indirectly, then no, categorically. If empathy is the thing where a girl tells a story and you try to match her story with a similar one, then yes, absolutely. That is actually a horrible conversational approach and its not good in almost any circumstance other than when you're perceived as too foreign and strange.

Shared experiences and opinions are obviously a plus, especially political/religious/moral values/opinions. Stupid, but true nonetheless. You're best off acknowledging when you agree, ignoring and directing conversation elsewhere if its a realm of disagreement and important. If its trivial, let her say her piece, then actively disagree with her and say so. This is the ultimate rapport break and can be very attractive if done with zero superiority complex or judgement.

Note on D/s: Dominance works both axes at the same time. It creates polarity and a man to woman frame. It also actively raises her perceived value of you by the nature of the activities you are doing. Her kneeling beneath you, for example. Submissive will work the axes in the reverse. If we look at marriage, you are submitting to her frame to some degree.

I agree with the first 3 sentences. I've tried making girls kneel for the sake of kneeling in D/s play, meaning not to blow me, just as an act of submission. Honestly, I only tried it twice and I found it offputting for both of us. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I feel like its not a great move because its so so so over the top and strange/foreign/weird. I discarded it as a tool.

Useful and effective D/s is stuff thats rewarding to both. When D/s is done well, the girl feels like she is "winning" or earning you and that feels good for her because its her seducing a man of value.

Culturally, I'd say that marriage does lean towards constraining men, but I'm not going to agree its a submissive act. Its a weirdly taboo topic, but the #1 strategy to get ahead in the West as a man is to be married. Married men make more money, most executive level positions would bend over backward to not hire a single man. Marriage is an institution that constrains both men and women, but its for the betterment of all when it works. Married people are healthier, happier, and more successful on virtually every axis of measurement that exists. The numbers are just overwhelming and arguing against them seems impossible.

Interested in learning how I may be able to deliver a compliment that can also raise my perceived value when I deliver it. I’ve found complimenting the eyes, while also holding deep eye contact, works really well. It draws attention to my eyes and I usually get a compliment back.

I just learned this from a random YT video, but the rapport break compliment has been super effective for me. Interrupt a girl (rudely) in the middle of her story or whatever topic she is talking about to give her a compliment. I think you should compliment whatever it is you actually do like about them the most, but skip anything that's physical. People want to be complimented for effort, not intelligence, not beauty, and not even skills. Hot people know they're hot, same with smart people, same with anyone good enough at something for you to be impressed. After effort, the next best thing imo are virtues/character strengths/decision making.

If there are other tools in this category I can use, and it won’t make her or myself feel like shit, I am open to hearing them.

Actually, they do exist. Only one I've found that I've personally used is making a girl change her outfit. When she is getting dressed/ready for you to go out. If you don't like it, tell her you don't like it and to change. Its insanely dominant and demanding, but there isn't much of an insult there. It will cause some drama, but the ideal amount of drama in a relationship isn't zero. If you're relationship is at absolute zero drama, it is usually worth creating a little.

The more refined/useful version of this one is immediate callouts of every single thing a girl does repeatedly that you hate. This needs some tact and wisdom, but anytime a girl does something that turns you off, for any reason. The first time you should write it down and figure out what about it you hate or annoyed by, then the next time she does it, immediately tell her you don't like it when she does it, why you don't like, and that you're only telling her because you want things between you to work out long term and you know this will become a problem. This is maybe the best advice I've found anywhere. If you call things out early they can get fixed early. If you let a girl smoke in your house 5 times, good fucking luck telling her she is no longer allowed to the 6th time she does. You can call thing out the first time if you know your position and what you're going to say, but in my experience, a lot of these situations are goofy and you don't realize you hate it until later. Examples: a girl makes jokes during sex to relieve her anxiety, a girl hits her vape/weed pen during sex, girl uses the bathroom with a door open, girl corrects you in front of others, girl leaves her shit everywhere, etc, etc.

Chasing… Chasing is death:

Yeah, I agree. I used to think persistence paid off in terms of pinging girls and the like. IMO, it doesn't. An occasional dead ping after a while is fine, but whenever a girl is being distant just move on. Chasing a girl is acting out and internalizing the belief that girls are better than you. People with real abundance just move on. I've seen a few examples of chasing working out, but I've also seen multiple examples of dudes that just move on and the girl getting confused and chasing them later. When I was seeing a girl casually she told me she was busy for NYE, so I said cool, we'll do something next week then. I booked a date with a different girl, and then original girl hit me up day before NYE asking if I was free, told her I wasn't, but would love to do something next week still. What's she going to make of that? That I'm not desperate? That her being busy isn't a big deal to me? That its in her best interest to be more compliant if she wants to get taken out? These are all things that raise your value, and it gives her a feeling of FOMO.

[Holden]

Chasing… Chasing is death: it’s a behavior that needs to be ripped out from the core mainframe, burned, put in a little box, and burned again. Why do I do it? 1) Sometimes the girl is hot (pedestalizing) and I really want her to stick around/ go on the date (needy). 2) I get in shitty scheduling situations where I keep having to re-engage her to try to set the date and I feel like I have to persist or it will not happen. Particularly AFTER the lay, if I try to set the day once, and she is busy, what do I say the second time so I am not sounding needy and chasing? This has killed too many retention opportunities.

I'm struggling with this because this is obviously true but it's also a fact that in 2024 girls get bombarded with messages and they will literally forget you exist if you don't ping them.

The choice in 2024 is between chasing a bit and looking needy, and not getting any action at all. Same with old out-dated "never ever double text" rules and the like. Things changed. Wait 24 hours and an average hot girl has gotten so many new messages that you're not on top of her inbox-list, meaning she has to scroll down to see your name/convo thread, meaning you are literally dead to her at this point because IG/TikTok/Snap fried her short term memory.

People say "just move on to the next one" as if the next one isn't also like this, and before you know it you've "moved on" from 50 girls with nothing to show for it.

Girls are also incapable of planning things themselves while simultaneously being extremely busy because they get 10 offers per night. Try texting a new girl "tell me when you're free" and watch how the convo dies a slow death. Text her "I'm free Wed and Thurs" and watch how she says she has plans and now you're looking needy saying shit like "uhhh okay Friday then?" Because next week might as well not exist in girl-time, you're dead already.

You need to be either significantly more high value than her (meaning she's not the type of girl we do this shit for anyway) or you need to be lucky and catch her at the one time she's actually available when you're texting her, aka luck.

The *only* remedy to this, that I've found, is "hacking" your value in some way. For me that's IG Stories of me being out with other girls. They watch these stories and suddenly oh they're free and they can send a text back and they're also more fun to text with. Funny how that works.

I don't think there is a consistent solution for this because we're dealing with something inherently paradoxical: you need to chase because the nature of the apps and online dating forces you to, yet it's also an unattractive behavior. There is no escape from these two contradictory yet true statements.

Closing the gap: Sometimes I’m getting the lay in spite of doing this. I probably don’t need to give her as much comfort as I sometimes do. Sometimes it’s necessary, but not as often as I think. Just like compliments, which I see as a good thing if they are genuine and not done to pedestalize, empathy needs to be selective, especially if I already have the higher perceived value.

People on this forum put waaaay too much emphasis on comfort as if girls don't regularly get fucked in public toilets. I have the following Chris GLL adagium fried into my brain: "if you fucked her in 4 hours, you could've fucked her in 2. If you could've fucked her in 2, you could've done it in one" etc.

Girls only say "you're moving too fast" if they've already put you in the "he might be a good boyfriend so I'll make him wait" box. This used to happen to me when I talked to girls about my previous high status job. When I didn't mention my line of work, that objection disappeared. It's not a n=1 thing either, I've tested it deliberately and always with the same result.

Too much comfort also signals a lack of abundance. "Why does this guy give a shit about me, he barely knows me."

Interested in learning how I may be able to deliver a compliment that can also raise my perceived value when I deliver it. I’ve found complimenting the eyes, while also holding deep eye contact, works really well. It draws attention to my eyes and I usually get a compliment back.

Unless it's to break the ice in the opening, I never compliment girls. At least not for the sake of it. I do it to show her I like a certain behavior and the implication is I want to see more of that behavior. Which also means I stick by the old school rule of never complimenting her genetics (eyes) but only her choices (dress, behavior.)

"I like those heels, you're getting bonus points by wearing those"

"You have a real talent for this" while she's massaging me post-sex and I'll exaggerate a bit in my "oooh that feels good"

On a first date after some seamless texting and planning, "I really liked texting with you, I like the enthusiasm you see in your replies"

[Zug]

Girls only say "you're moving too fast" if they've already put you in the "he might be a good boyfriend so I'll make him wait" box.

Is this really a thing? I hear about it all the time, but it never once happened to me (for this reason), and its obvious I have money. I haven't dated that many 30yo+, maybe it shows up then. Also, I feel like a significant amount of "youre moving too fast" isn't actually lack of comfort, but lack of attraction and/or escalating in an obnoxious way.

As an aside, anytime a girl uses the "im going to make you X" or "you need to earn it first" type language I want to vomit and take a time machine back to before I swiped right.

[kratjeuh]

@september made an excellent post in his log how empathy is the most important trait to have especially when you’re dating girls of status. I’ve added the original writers post below.

If you can’t understand the consequences of certain decisions towards the social status of a girl, you’re limiting yourself to dating lower status girls who are not always, but typically less attractive than high status girls because of braces, cosmetics, …

Imagine if a girl of wealth an status goes on a date with you to an ugly cheap bar and gets spotted there. When her friends confront her, she basically has no way other than saying it was a fuckdate with a random guy. That’s an immediate loss in her social power.

Now let’s say you take her to a nice bar and she gets spotted. Her friends ask her and she can say: “Oh yeah this guy was very eager to treat me for free cocktails because he found me so pretty and it’s such a nice place for IG so I just went for free”. This adds to her social value and she won’t have to mention her friends she took your dick all night.

The same principle applies in the club. A girl of status will not fuck you in the public toilets lol. If they get caught she is now automatically the group slut for her entire life.
Remember: girls like to act slutty to get attention and free drinks (status boost) but they don’t want to be called the slut.

That doesn’t mean you can’t get her, you’ll just have to seduce her, win over her friends and take her home with you. Your way of winning is to take her home so she can tell her friends she was just soooo drunk and this humble cool guy was sweet enough to make sure she was safe.

If you only filter for almost obvious fuckdates, there’s no reason to ever learn how to be empathic, hell you don’t even have to learn how to build comfort at all. You’ll just have to accept you lose out on a very big pool of women.

For higher value girls and especially dating without using dating apps, your success is very much related whether you can understand her view and create your own little bubble applying your and her view into one.

[Holden]

Is this really a thing?

Eh, I'd say it's your age, at which wealth/status is implied. Plus you filter for girls who want to fulfil their "sexy older man" fantasy. When they're dating their own age in the early 20s, they date either poor students or recent graduates with an entry level boring job. My job by contrast implied status, recognition from peers, regularly meeting important people, etc. Quite a step up from what she's used to, status-wise. Hence, "oh shit I need to actually keep this guy around [and not act like a slut]." I never had this problem when I was a poor student myself, and I haven't had the problem since I stopped talking about what I do. It's not a coincidence.

@kratjeuh You should try asking every girl that you've had quick sex with, after establishing you're a non-judgmental player type, what their "craziest sex story" is. I think you'll be surprised at the answers.

Yes, no girl wants to appear as a slut, but don't underestimate the amount of emotional and psychological (not to mention practical) resources she has to hide that fact. Obviously not every girl has a toilet-in-the-club story. But ask them, tell them a story of your own, invent one if necessary... Show that you're "in the world" of these guys and you'll quickly see she's in that world as well.

And if not, every girl has the "sexy stranger fucks me within 2 minutes" fantasy anyway. So even if she has practical objections she has no psychological ones. Just waiting for the right guy who can engineer such a scenario.

Most girls have one BFF that they share everything with and they hide the rest from the others in the group anyway, btw. You're never going to know this stuff unless you can present yourself as part of the in-group first.

For example if I asked them while they knew about my job as in my reply to Zug above, they wouldn't tell me anything spicy. But if they saw me as a quick sex fuckboy who just told them a story of his own about meeting a girl in a park and feeling a connection and doing it in the bushes right there, then she'll tell me the true juicy story she has. The typical nice guy will never know about it.

Many times in my log I talk about girls who "used me" for a quick fuck because they are dating a guy and it's about to get serious and they want one last fuck with someone else before they become monogamous. I tell them "it's pretty exciting that he will never know about me" and they say "yeah." They don't plan on telling their future boyfriend about the quick 5 minute sex with me from Tinder. It's just the reality of things. They're not "low class", they're intelligent students doing master's degrees.

This classic 20-year old post has always served me well, not for its literal message, but to internalize the mindset behind it: https://bristollair.com/secret-society/

[Bman]

Really appreciate the advice and comments, boys.

You might need to define empathy better for us to debate this. If empathy is understanding her blueprint, what she is feeling and thinking, and the ability to perceive and feel it indirectly, then no, categorically. If empathy is the thing where a girl tells a story and you try to match her story with a similar one, then yes, absolutely.

Empathy is the first. The latter is just surface level mirroring and you're right, its a poor strategy. To be clear, I'm not saying empathy is a bad thing. Obviously I use empathy a lot. It builds deep rapport. All good for a healthy relationship.

Also agree with the perspective raised by your comment @kratjeuh.

However, we are talking about seduction here. I think if used too much, it's anti seductive for the reason presented behind Holden's comment:

"Why does this guy give a shit about me, he barely knows me."

Call me a humanist or whatever, but I genuinely care about people. I think it makes me a strong leader. It makes me friendly, approachable, and able to build deep relationships.

But it seems that the most seductive guys just don't give a shit. They act out of their selfish desires, be damned what the consequences of his actions on her. Open to being wrong about this though. I want to be wrong about it. I wantto believe it can be done differently, and I guess that my log is trying to be a testament to that. But what I want and what the reality is may be different.

It's actually a paradox I confront in the bedroom, too. I'm never able to just use her. Most of the time I'm trying to figure out how I can maximize the pleasure of any given act for the both of us. I rarely ever do anything strictly for my pleasure.

Useful and effective D/s is stuff thats rewarding to both. When D/s is done well, the girl feels like she is "winning" or earning you and that feels good for her because its her seducing a man of value.

Yes, agreed.

Culturally, I'd say that marriage does lean towards constraining men, but I'm not going to agree its a submissive act. Its a weirdly taboo topic, but the #1 strategy to get ahead in the West as a man is to be married. Married men make more money, most executive level positions would bend over backward to not hire a single man. Marriage is an institution that constrains both men and women, but its for the betterment of all when it works. Married people are healthier, happier, and more successful on virtually every axis of measurement that exists. The numbers are just overwhelming and arguing against them seems impossible.

Agreed, when it works. Which, if the divorce rate has anything to show, is not often.

I'm also all for marriage, if that is truly what you want. It's hard to separate my views from what's most optimal for the majority of people in society from what's the most optimal for myself. I can without a ounce of doubt say that I am happier, healthier, and making more progress on my own then when I was married. To be clear, I loved my exwife and the marriage was great in a lot of aspects. I believe it ended for two reasons 1) we had different values that we were not aware of because we married young (one of those being my nonmonogamy), 2) I failed to keep polarity alive.

Interrupt a girl (rudely) in the middle of her story or whatever topic she is talking about to give her a compliment...After effort, the next best thing imo are virtues/character strengths/decision making

Gold. Thank you for this. Will use.

The more refined/useful version of this one is immediate callouts of every single thing a girl does repeatedly that you hate.

Yes, as evidence of this week, I'm actively working on this, trying to callout one the first time it occurs. I used to be bad at this and if you let things go one that you hate, you build resentment towards her.

@Zug & @Holden on chasing:

I think I have had it work out maybe once or twice. But the vast majority of the time it doesn't. Every time I think I have to do it, I stare at the same paradox Holden described.

Maybe there is a way to callout the meta-frame?

So we ask once or twice, and if they are not actively giving alternative days to your offer.

Ones before the lay: "Hey I think we'd vibe and I'd like to go on a date to find that out, but I'm not going to chase you. Send me your schedule of days you are free and we can set a date."

After the lay: "Hey I enjoyed our time together and I'd like to see you again, but I'm not going to chase you. Send me your schedule of days you are free and we can set a date"

you're moving too fast

To be honest, I have never been told this by a girl. So maybe I'm not pushing the edge enough and could do it faster. Which I mean, seems a little fast for my own comfort because I've done 15 minutes and most of the time I'm 30-45 minutes. What your probably telling me is a lot of these girls I probably could have done straight to my place, if I could be comfortable enough doing so.

Unless it's to break the ice in the opening, I never compliment girls. At least not for the sake of it. I do it to show her I like a certain behavior and the implication is I want to see more of that behavior. Which also means I stick by the old school rule of never complimenting her genetics (eyes) but only her choices (dress, behavior.)

Ok, similar to what Zug was saying, using them as reward for behaviors that you want more of.

In practice, I always express gratitude for behaviors I want them to continue like the way they texted me, expressing themselves, or wearing something they know I like or I told them to wear. What you're say is I could more do this more powerfully by using a compliment as a reward.

Gold. Thank you for this. Particularly like the texting example to train them how best to speak with me.

But ask them, tell them a story of your own, invent one if necessary... Show that you're "in the world" of these guys and you'll quickly see she's in that world as well.

Sharing sex stories or kinky sex stuff is always a part of my date game. I've found the best way to get them to open up about their wild or kinky adventures is to first share yours. And no, not just the FetLife/ Feeld girls who may be more comfortable doing so. I mean all of them. Can confirm that almost all of them either have a wild story or they have a fantasy to do so.

[Bman]

Shared experiences and opinions are obviously a plus, especially political/religious/moral values/opinions. Stupid, but true nonetheless. You're best off acknowledging when you agree, ignoring and directing conversation elsewhere if its a realm of disagreement and important. If its trivial, let her say her piece, then actively disagree with her and say so. This is the ultimate rapport break and can be very attractive if done with zero superiority complex or judgement.

Ok, thought about this one more. Breaking rapport I think is the larger theme I need to work on.

I can I show her I understand her perspective, not just logically but emotionally (which is when people really felt "seen"), then breaking rapport by emphasizing that although I see her perspective, here's how I think and feel. The ultimate of this for seduction would be points of contrast that are inherent between a man's experience and woman's experience, showing that I understand the game and I am comfortable being the man in that game.

I'm much better than I used to be, but I have been adverse in the past to tension, especially conflict or drama. Now I understand tension is good and don't try to avoid it. But I can see I still have room for improvement with breaking rapport.

Thanks Zug.

[Holden]

I had a date right this moment where I talked about my experience being a bull in cuckold situations and the girl immediately went from good-girl-student-from-a-muslim-country to admitting all kinds of "adventures" she had while abroad. Things you wouldn't expect from a 22 year old who lives on Instagram and who presents herself as a professional-to-be wholesome "wealth" girl.

They know how to hide this side of their existence really well. I didn't fuck her because I got too greedy (more info on my log write-up later) but I could've if I had more time (had another date in line) and then no one would have ever known I existed, a foreign traveller that she met up with in the middle of the day, between IG stories of her having breakfast at some bougie place and visiting a flea market later... Who would know? No one.

I don't think you can all out "the meta frame" like that, it sounds try-hard. "I won't chase you" is not something a genuinely high value guy would say, he wouldn't waste words on that.

I have converted girls to my side, who said they "maybe" wanted to meet, by telling them "I don't date maybe girls." Something like that might work. But honestly if a girl is being a bitch about scheduling, 90% of the time you can forget it. There's no gracious way to get her to meet you if she can't even tell you when she's free.