Rice photo log

[Manganiello]

@Rice didn't you move cities?

There's a small chance it could be that. Tinder in Korea has below 3% female users.

Still works. But it's not even close to the same. It's so bad I stopped using it altogether.

Could be that.


You've gone pretty far looksmaxxing.
- could be the height thing. Entirely plausible.
- Asian?. Probably not.
- picture diversity is low. No social pics (but I don't think that's a huge deal)
- You could go for an edgier look (less pretty boy), which would literally just mean change your hair, or put on a backwards hat. (Which would be interesting, but hard to say what difference it would make)


I'm just putting out ideas.
I literally don't know.

But if I had to guess it would be looking too soft (not edgy enough), and height.

You can't fix height. But you can trick it just enough where any embellishment would be a non-deal breaker.


...

But I think this is besides the point. Cold approach is probably better anyway. And I don't think there's any downside from being great at Cold Approach and shitty with online.

[Thebastard]

Hello @Rice

I tend not to post much unless I truly feel like I have some useful opinion on the matter that could possibly help. In this case I am not sure I can but I will give you my thoughts. Feel free to tell me to gtfo, up to you.

Online dating is brutally fucking difficult.

And I would wager the vast majority of guys who try get their cheeks utterly clapped and handed to them. The statistics of how many dudes throw in the towel after x amount of time might lend credence to that alone. As well as the fact the majority of all users of these apps are men and the strong probability only a tiny % of men on those apps actually get results should make it abundantly clear to anyone with eyes to see that online dating is as I said brutally fucking difficult.

You could be a legit 7/10 male who has maxxed himself out to the highest degree of his capabilities and still get your cheeks clapped to oblivion. This is more true today back in the Good Looking Loser days when simply being ‘above average’ (which technically would be being a 6) was good enough to get results. Today though it’s the chads who clean up and lay pipe to the lion’s shares of sugar walls.

Disclaimer, I am not a 5’4 Asian man with otherwise decent looks playing the game in a highly competitive Western country. Let’s get that out of the way.

I am a 5’7.5 bald white guy with a homely face.

And I only got laid ONCE in a western country (the not so United Kingdom) in my LIFE. From hinge funnily enough. And please believe it was not from a lack of effort or years of grinding it out during the GLL days.

The very fact you did as well as you did is inspirational as fuck to me.

You might not realise it but you are probably in the top 10% when it comes to online dating performance. Or at least you were. It isn’t exactly clear because obviously you ARE still getting plenty of matches (which as you say is the only thing tinder controls). Yet you aren’t getting the dates – you are losing more girls than before at each step of the process.

Let me tell you something. Back in 2017 I was getting HUNDREDS of matches on tinder in Mexico City – one of the most populous, if not THE most populous city in Latin America. And on one 2 week trip stuck my pee pee in 9 different girls.

In 2019 despite the matches I didn’t get ONE lay on the 2 week trip I was there. I still got TONS of matches – maybe not like 2017 but still a ton. My chad friend who accompanied me on that trip got a similar number of matches yet he fucked I think it was actually 9 girls lol. Same number of matches and very similar texting style.

Since 2019 my photos improved dramatically. Fast forward to 2021, in Monterrey I managed to get 4 girls from a total of 3 trips (total 6 weeks or something). One of those girls is actually my girlfriend now and our relationship is open (which is why I haven’t gone mad yet lol).

In 2022/2023 I have spent several months in Monterrey and I haven’t got a SINGLE new lay.

Far fewer matches, maybe 2 or so dates. If I was in the top 10% before I am certainly not now. Bear in mind I am a white guy (let’s forget lack of looks, height and hair) so I should have a huge leg up in goddam latin America by default. Latin America along with SEA is the place white guys are supposed to be killing it in, even if they get no play at all in whatever Western country they originated from.

Yet even pound for pound, if you look at number of dates proportional to matches I am getting my ass kicked. More gringos flooding Mexico could be a factor but there are likely far more and all ultimately contribute to a kind of inflation over time which always threatens to knock you out of the game. I have a theory that the reason I did so well in 2017 is because the rapper Pitbull was the cat's whiskers in Latam and I resembled him somewhat. And perhaps his popularity dwindled (along with my success) in the eyes of the mamasitas over time. Maybe, its just a theory.

Why I am I telling you this?

I am telling you this because I am really trying to drive home the fact you are doing FAR better than you think. This is a monstrously competitive game you are playing. And it is ALWAYS becoming more competitive. The only guys who are immune to this (in general, not always) are the chads.

@Kurvam has banged well over 150 girls from online dating in Poland over the course of 7 years or something and occasionally has banged more girls in a fortnight than I have over the course of 7 years in that very same country where I used to spend most of my time when I wasn't working on the ships. Let that sink in.

Getting 1 date a week from OLD consistently for any guy who isn't in the top whatever % is a VERY tall order and it gets harder all the time because there are tons of other men who are constantly working on their photos/looks, driving up the difficulty for all players of the game.

I can’t really advise on how to fix this. You are actually doing better than me – a man who is white and taller than you who is getting his ass handed to him in freaking Latin America.

All I can really say is that if cold approach is working for you (even if far less efficient) then focus on that. 30 CA dates in a year is not to be sniffed at! Or just be cool with the fact that OLD is just going to keep getting harder over time and the ROI is going to sink.

Not that you should stop trying or anything – obviously keep working on your photos/text game or whatever. Why wouldn’t you?

Even if you aren’t getting a date a week, it isn’t a huge opportunity cost to keep trying. Let’s say you get 3 new lays a year from OLD to supplement your cold approach – that is still 3 lays more than 0 and any one of those lays could become a good FB or even girlfriend.

I too would LOVE to hear from 5’1 to 5’5 guys who are killing it the way that 5’1 guest posted on GLL purported to back in 2012. I think shorter guys seeing such guys who do consistently succeed in action would be a very good thing for morale and inspiration.

Not sure where they are hiding. I thought maybe they just want to keep their secret sauce to themselves to limit competition. Yet the other side of me thinks wait a minute, guys love bragging about their successes online so why wouldn’t they?

By the way, isn’t @colgate 5’5 and from an Asian country? I am not familiar with his performance on the apps – I think he and @MakingAComeback are going to do a part 2 where they delve into that if I am not mistaken.

[MakingAComeback]

Yo Rice, glad to hear you're not in a bad spot mentally.

I will reply in full, I am flying back to Budapest today, but I will do my best to contribute and help you out.

Remember, we all want you to succeed, dude. We will do our best.

I want you to win, and I do not want any of the KYIL guys to have a horrible time at all, that makes me pretty upset and fortunately so far we have been able to get guys over the line.

-Ravi

[foducossy42]

@foducossy42 genius.

Tried every free ai photo website I can find. Didn't work. It makes the edges of the face sharper but it is too obviously discolored, and not actually sharp.

But I came across this (https://github.com/TencentARC/GFPGAN) which actually works, except it made the blonde into an old lady...

So I went on faceapp and tried to make her pretty again, as well as faceapped myself and the brunette. Heres the final result:


IMG_9040.JPG


The ai made me have curved eyebrows now. But I think its ok if I leave this photo zoomed out like that so that you can barely see my face.

Since I am now going to be using a nearly 3 year old photo. Do you guys think I should sprinkle in some older photos with black hair?

This is really good. So clear now! A little bit too smooth texture on the skin so it does look slightly artificial but still works.

Edit: this works despite looking a bit artificial because it’s a unique situation. This isn’t your standard AI headshot. It looks real.

As for the brows you should be able to do a simple touch up using photoshop. But you are right it’s not going to be noticeable because this pic’s purpose is to show you with other people doing something, no girl will look at your face closely.

Fucking incredible with the old woman thing and faceapping her You can do whatever you want with the girls’ faces because they aren’t of you anyway. Bravo.

@MakingAComeback IMO this AI upscaler tool could be stickied somewhere as it could help salvage old photos.

[foducossy42]

IMG_9042.jpgIMG_9041.jpg


Here is texting examples. One is from last year and the other is more recent. I don't really do anything special, thats why my ratio was so "bad" at ~1/30. The girls are just giving me less frame nowadays, usually not even making it past the point where I ask them out.

I guess I do change a little bit of the wording on my messages, but the overall structure hasn't changed. So I would have expected to keep my match:date ratio the same rather than it be less than 1/100 right now.

These girls are both incredibly interested in you off the bat. You just had to say pretty much anything. I bet you even the Andy line “Watcha up to?” Would have worked.

You can tell because of their *insanely* high investment responses.

What are their archetypes? Eg are they Asian, white, tall, sporty etc?

It is clumsy to compliment them and then immediately switch to “What do you like to do for fun?” But yes as I have detailed elsewhere in this forum I do love asking that question as it builds rapport and the girl feels like you care about who she is as a person. It also serves as a qualifier for the date (you seem cool (because of what she does for fun) let’s get a drink). I’m switching to use it for after we solidified the date idea, more to anti-flake than qualify.

Secondly, compliments on an app do not set you apart at all.To be fair your compliment is a rather decent one, there are much worse out there. But it is also just a compliment. It is push with no pull. Yin with no Yang.

I have had decent success with ONE compliment line. “You’ve got great style, think I’ve finally found my match ” Because this doesn’t give you away as a needy guy trying to get her attention, you’re framing yourself as a chooser. Someone worth being pursued. It’s not push-pull, but it is chase-framing.

Another line that has worked is “I hate that you can wear so many bright and beautiful colours” — if you know or care about colour season theory in fashion (how colours work for your skin) this can work, I am brown so my skin works better with cooler darker colours. This is push-pull. Note that this isn’t a neg, it’s a compliment with a twist. Another similar line is “You dress in such bright and beautiful colours so I’m not sure if we can work out ” <— I have never used this, just brainstorming.

So anyway your problem here is the second message is clumsy and it’s a push-only compliment. Open loop openers are the best for opening rate but you will need to come up with a better thing to say and you cannot make it unique because it is too much time investment from you.

You also should have messages that lead you towards a date. So for example the second message can be a push-pull compliment that hints at the two of you going out for a date.

Putting all these together:

I gotta say one thing

You’ve got great style, think I’ve finally found my match But the two of us might attract too much attention when we’re out on a date. <— this compliments her but positions you as a similarly fashionable guy who also gets attention when he’s out.

<now you have to Vacuum since this is a statement and not a question, which is a weakness of the line I came up with. Your next question can ask her to pick from date ideas, which is natural and not autistic since you already talked about a date>

You will need to experiment with this. But I’ve given you a lot today. Report back with your findings in your log and tag me there.

[foducossy42]

Do you guys think I should sprinkle in some older photos with black hair?

No. You can barely see your hair in this one.

[Holden]

I do primarily online, and I'm still in the West. It's definitely gotten harder. It's probably just a mix of bad factors coming together.

You're correct about the arms race. There's more guys than ever on Tinder, who have better photos than ever, and Tinder is prioritizing guys who spend money more than ever.

On top of that, most girls are just tired of Tinder and apps in general. Notifications off, getting overwhelmed with the two million matches they get, Instagram has become more important and they're getting hit up constantly over there too.

And maybe this is a personal thing, but I feel like girls in the 18-21 y/o bracket are just different from the same girls 5-10 years ago. Gen Z is kinda fucked in the head. They're noticeably much worse at texting, being interesting. I get more one-word answers than ever. Not necessarily because they aren't interested, they're just boring.

That doesn't really help you though. My two cents wrt your profile would be that you still have room to add edge. More tattoos, more polarizing style. I also don't smile in my pics, I just don't think it looks masculine/threatening/fuckboyish. Losing some more bf% wouldn't hurt either.

I think the match-to-date ratio has gone down for everyone. So you need to compensate in another way.

[Radical]

I echo what @Holden said

Stay the course, keep making the adjustments until it clicks and them continue improving to stay in business

While there is an evergreen framework to aim at, online is a bit of an arms race, if i put my profile from 3 years ago up i dont think it would do well. Slight improvements overtime, keeping in touch with whats working for over guys and adapting it for me has kept me in a groove that returns results

We are self improvement addicts anyway
We love the process
Itd be boring otherwise

[Bman]

Before I say this, know that it comes with the most loving intention. I want to see you succeed. Based on your introductory post, you sound like you're in a good enough headspace to hear it and not take it literally. So now I'll be blunt.

You're incredibly good looking. Like a model. But in an Abercrombie & fitch way. Great style, great physique, great smile, great hair. So much so... you look gay. I have some really good friends who are gay and they dress just like you.

Girls probably want to hang out with you and have fun, but they are not perceiving you as a sexual threat. Online is ALL about perception. In person when approaching you probably overcome this with your body language and game, so you actually are a sexual threat.

Unfortunately, your cheek bone structure also makes you look young. Which throws you into the pretty boy/ boy band camp. Which again, makes you look gay.

Now I think this would easily be turned around by adding way more edge. Think less pretty boy, more yakuza.

IMG_9029 is starting to reach into that territory. But it could be way more.
IMG_9028 is ok, gives me the vibe of nightlife and what a gangster would be doing... but you're smiling like a pretty boy.

Look at this guy...

Yakuza.PNG

Is he here to have fun with these girls or is he here to fuck?

Where is the photo that is your KYIL avatar? The tat on your arm, the stance, and the veins popping out makes you look like a badass motherfucker. I don't know if you're going to fuck or kill someone. That's what you want.

What I think would help you is:

• More tattoos
• A street clothing style
• Less smiling. Only one smiling photo for your profile to reassure them you are not actually a serial killer
• More hard stares. Literally go look at a dozen photos of yakuza members and see how they hold their face.
• Don't faceapp at such high levels. A little is ok. Men are rugged. Boys are airbrush pretty.
• Don't talk about hobbies in texting. You're here to fuck, not to hang out and do hobbies. Gay best friends do hobbies.
• Hair still works, keep it.
• No outdoorsy/beach photos. That's Abercrombie & fitch territory.
• Get more photos in the city. Preferably neon lights like @Adrizzle's avatar. Doesn't he look like a badass motherfucker in that photo?
• The photo with the girls is iffy. You look like a fun guy, maybe a sexual threat since your shirtless. I'd disregard what we are saying about it and ask some girls what they think of you when they look at the photo. Id prefer to see the girls looking at you/ interacting with you instead of looking at themselves in the mirror. Look at Pancake’s Golden Rules of Group Photos on Apps

Really, I think this is an easy fix. You just need to switch archetypes.

[Vice]

@Bman is spot on.

Also, having a verified profile isn’t enough.

You need to have your photos taken with prominent landmarks in your local area to assure that you’re real. I’ve had feedback from women who thought I was a fake profile because my photos were so good and that I was so much fitter and better looking than most of my competition (sounds like bragging but the locals here are dogshit).

I make sure that I have photos with prominent landmarks plus photos in popular local venues mixed in. I no longer show “tRaVeL pHoToS” because they don’t matter in my experience.

That photo with the girls is giving off gay best friend energy. You’re bending over in front of them shirtless while they’re dressed up in costumes. If you took the photo of you in a more dominant position with them, the vibes would be a lot different. I’ve spent over 15 years in gay clubs to meet women and that’s the instant impression I get. That’s why the women were comfortable with using that photo in their own dating profiles, because in that particular photo you give off the gay best friend vibe. Making that image sharper would just make it a higher quality gay best friend pic.

You’re already a good looking dude and have done most of the hard work, some minor adjustments in style and better photos with local spots to assure them you’re real is all you really need to do.

[Tragedy]

I was about to reply that you are undoubtedly above average in look, physique and style but in these pictures you have an androgynous young kid vibe, like justin bieber. Not JB nowdays but him in 2010s. A style that makes 12yo girls blush (dunno about nowdays girls but definitely so in 2010s. My sisters had their room filled with posters of guys who looked exactly like you).

But @Bman said way better than I could have said it.

I personally prefer you with dark hair, it gives me more masculine feeling, but I would ask girls what they prefer. I'm also very looking forward to read any update about the yakuza style results haha

[foducossy42]

That photo with the girls is giving off gay best friend energy. You’re bending over in front of them shirtless while they’re dressed up in costumes. If you took the photo of you in a more dominant position with them, the vibes would be a lot different. I’ve spent over 15 years in gay clubs to meet women and that’s the instant impression I get. That’s why the women were comfortable with using that photo in their own dating profiles, because in that particular photo you give off the gay best friend vibe. Making that image sharper would just make it a higher quality gay best friend pic.

That’s really interesting. Hadn’t thought of that. Preselection photos are really difficult to nail…

[rohanp]

I am struggling to find the Incel in question. You are a good looking guy. I like your hair, style, phsyique, and style. You have great sex appeal. You have 14 lays, which well above the average sexual partners a man in the west has. You should give yourself credit bro. And this is despite being 5’3”. Hell, you and colgate both are some of my inspirations and have helped me immensely in dark times.

With that being said, you can definetly get laid on OLD. But how consistent? That depends entirely on the abundance you have. The turth is this. Most girls on OLD are not looking to meet up. I have almost 60 matches in little less than 4 weeks on hinge, without paying of course, and it’s hard to get them to meet up.

Even dudes who are 6’3” i know, are struggling to get consistent sex from online dating. Getting consistent lays from OLD us hard. Yoh need to optimize your profile, pay for the apps, and not only be good looking, but flaunt your wealth as well. It’s very hard. You can definitely get constant lays, but you need to max out everything in the book.

Best of luck to you mate!

[Rice]

Thanks so much for the detailed feedback guys. Sorry for the late response as I was travelling and didn't have access to a laptop for a while.

Couple of things happened though.

First off I went back and double checked the time stamps on a few hundred of my messages. And while I claimed that I was indeed messaging girls "within a reasonable time frame", I did leave a 12 hr gap in at some point with almost all of my conversations.

Talked to @pancakemouse about it, and this is a bigger deal than I thought. I had previously believed that as long as I go from match -> date pitch within 24 hr, I was being sufficiently fast, but it turns out I was only getting away with it because I was in Ottawa, a city of only 1.3 million. Now that I am in big city Montreal, this doesn't fly. 12 hr is more than enough time for her to move on to the next hot guy.

Second issue is this:

2023-10-29 14.45.08.jpg

Basically I learned pretty early on that if a chick doesn't put in some investment, I am not getting her out, so I tend to stop replying when I see this. But as @Holden pointed out, this new generation is just bad at texting so perhaps I am misreading it. As well, there was a bit of a language barrier potentially making the girls less chatty.

In this particular case (Il post more details on my log) I actually got this chick out on a date. She didn't speak a word of english and my french isn't very good. But I still managed to pull to her bedroom and messed around with her before she gave LMR that she just got out of a relationship. Pretty much, she actually was interested but I didn't read it. She double texted me, but most girls won't. I am probably bleeding a few leads this way as well.

So to rectify these two issues with my texting, I have been following @september's texting as well as making a commitment to log down every single match as well as keep my phone with me at all times to ensure I won't answer any texts more than a few minutes late.

I won't be going on any dates since I am with my family for the week in Ottawa. But I would like to see if I can get some dates scheduled, even if I don't actually go. Being back in Ottawa also helps A/B test if somehow being in a different city had any effect on my results.

The good news though is that I am actually getting way way more matches than I thought. Now that I have to count every single match, I am not getting 2-4 as I thought I was. I am actually getting 5-8 per day using just tinder platinum and swiping, no boosts.

The bad news? @kratjeuh was right.

photo_2023-10-29 14.57.50.jpeg

I never got called out explicitly before. Perhaps because in Montreal the girls would rather move on to another guy than invest into background checking some guy she really likes. But as with compliments from girls, if one girl says something, at least 10 others are thinking the same thing and not saying it.

I am actually trying to catfish girls to some extent though. This is my plan to win the arms race. Because at this point I am confident enough in my looks that I will be fine with potentially a girl straight up telling me in person I am uglier than she imagined. But if it is way too obvious to the point I barely get dates then it defeats the point.

Though I will say in general, girls have always still been into me once we meet in person. I've always used faceapp heavily. Except for like 1-2 times where she was half a head taller than me. But that could very well have been bad in person game as well.


Short term actions

Going forward, my first priority is to see if the changes to texting makes a difference. I will report back in a week or after 50 matches, whichever comes first. For now I will keep my photos the exact same as to not mess up the experiment. This has zero cost anyway since I am not dating this week.

If I don't get dates still, then I will know for sure I need to change my photos. In preparation for this, I have thrown different faceapp levels of my photos onto photofeeler (none, medium, catfish level) to see how much of an impact that makes. I will also report back with those photo's scores. Just like I did with my old pictures in the past:

Screen Shot 2023-10-29 at 3.25.12 PM.png

Screen Shot 2023-10-29 at 3.24.22 PM.png

Screen Shot 2023-10-29 at 3.21.59 PM.png

I know photofeeler isn't the best but I'd imagine comparing different edits of the exact same shot is still useful.

Regardless of results. I also have plans with some of my white friends to hangout when I get back to Montreal and spend a lot of time taking social pictures together. If this doesn't yield useable shots, then my next payed shoot I will prioritize a social shot as there seems to be a unanimous agreement that I need white boys (or girls) in my profile.

Verifying my profile will be the last thing I do. Mainly because I don't want to risk difficulty resetting my profile if I end up getting banned at some point in the future (especially since I plan to catfish). But if I still have poor results after profile and texting modifications, then what do I have to lose.


Long term

@Bman You are right. And its actually way worse than that because I am actually more gay in person than I present myself in photos. This is why I know I have potential, simply because I have so much to clean up behaviour wise.

I still plan on getting more tattoos and getting more jacked but I don't want to rush the tattoos as I would like them to have more personal meaning. As for the avatar photo, heres the original:

Screen Shot 2023-10-29 at 3.47.30 PM.png

I feel like the expression isn't that good and cheeks don't look very flattering. But I liked my body langauge and style so thats why I used it here. I have a few photos from that shoot where the face looked better but ended up not using it because I already have too many photos just standing around.

I like your idea overall of trying to create an image of a pure sexual threat instead of Mr. Smiley boy. And I can already do this to some extent by just swapping around existing photos. I will definitely try this out once I get my results from changing texting habits.

I have done archetype analysis recently by going on instagrams of chicks I've been with and seeing who they follow. At this point its still not super clear if I am more of a kpop pretty boy or tatted gym guy (sample size isn't big enough). But regardless of what look I go for, the vibe needs to be more masculine.


Other comments

@foducossy42 I only date white girls (I like asians too but there aren't any that like me on apps). I seem to attract pretty much any girl that likes cats, which is a pretty wide market. But because I am autistic I tend to only end up closing with girls that are a bit on the weird side as well (red hair, piercings, ect).

Because of this, I keep forgetting that being asian is actually a disadvantage. But I can see that its always better to be "part of the tribe" than not, so hard agree with you about having white people on my profile.


@Thebastard Yeah I don't know man. Nowadays hearing how hard it can be for short ethnic guys usually encourages me because I can appreciate more just how many blackpill "rules" I have broken already. I have had a lot of girls tell me they usually date tall white guys but say for whatever reason I am their type too. So I have come to view myself as the rule breaker.

And thats why I want to get this online thing figured out as well. Perhaps I can break the rules there too. But it can get lonely sometimes because I don't have as many guys I can bounce ideas off. Since other guys who can actually relate to my experience usually are hoping to even get the same results I can.

I know there has to be a short ethnic guy somewhere doing better than me though. For example, in the gym I have yet to meet a guy my size who is actually stronger than me and I have been looking for years for that too. But I know if I go to a powerlifting meet at a high level I will find them. A local city meet? Probably not.

At this point, the mindset I have been trying to adopt is this: The current version of me can be a mentor for the version of me a few years ago. So the version of me in the future can be a mentor for me right now. What would the best version of me do?

[foducossy42]

I know photofeeler isn't the best but I'd imagine comparing different edits of the exact same shot is still useful.

This is actually pretty smart. Not sure if it provides any data that our intuition would not already provide, but interesting use of Photofeeler.